×
Message from Dave..... Moderator Approval

Don't panic if your post doesn't appear immediately.

× Rock Chalk Talk: Basketball

Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage

Bill Self W-L Record AY2022-23

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
1 year 3 weeks ago - 1 year 3 weeks ago #30512 by HawkErrant
NB: The AY2021-22 thread can be found at this link.

TT = another Win Rock Chalked Up!

But a question has arisen.

When the 4 game suspensions for Self and Assistant Coach Kurtis Townsend were announced back in November, KU Athletics indicated those games would not count as part of Self's record. They would instead be "program wins" (no credit for Norm Roberts, either).

But now KU Communications, in it's Game Notes (both pre-game and post game) is including those 4 wins when Roberts was the interim HC in Self's record, at least in part. They have the 4 wins in Self's KU record for this year and in his KU career record, but not in his overall career record, which is inconsistent to say the least. I have queried them to find out if KU Athletics has changed it's stance on whether those wins will count for Self or not.

I personally think they should. It's his program, his players that he and his staff have recruited and developed. If he was out sick for 4 games, they would almost certainly include them. The move to make them "program" wins was solely to attempt to placate the NCAA.

But given what we were told at the start of the season, I have kept those wins separate from Self's record, which has been something of a pain for managing my data files.

But more importantly, when Self passes Phog, everyone should be able to agree on what the records are.

For now, until I learn that KU Athletics has rescinded it's earlier official decision, I am not including the Roberts wins in Self's totals.


WON-LOST
at KU____ ( % ) NAME_________ CAREER ( % )
590-219 (.729) Phog Allen___ 746-264 (.739)
577-129 (.817) BILL SELF_____ 784-234 (.770)
418-101 (.808) Roy Williams_ 903-264 (.774)


10 = Potential games left in AY2022-23 if KU makes the finals in both the Big 12 and NCAA Tournaments.
13 = Wins to tie Phog as winningest Head Coach in KANSAS history.
119 = Wins to tie Roy as THE winningest KANSAS Head Coach for TOTAL CAREER

To pass Phog this year Self's Jayhawks would have had to finish 39-1, repeating as National Champions.

Self should pass both Phog and 800 wins early next season.

Here's to his Jayhawks only needing to give him 3 wins next season to tie PHOG! :)

===============================================
BACKGROUND
(This section seldom changes during the course of the season, but is copied in each new post for easy reference.)
Last Update: 2023-02-18


With AY2021-22's 34-6 record and NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, Bill was mathematically positioned to be able to pass Phog by the end of the AY2022-23 postseason. It would have required winning 35 games in AY2022-23. With his four game suspension to start the year and the loss against Tennessee in the Battle for Atlantis, KANSAS would have had to run the table the rest of the way to pass Phog.

FYI: in his 19 years at KANSAS Bill's teams have won 69 games or more in two consecutive seasons just once, so the odds were against him racking up 35 Ws for AY2022-23 even before he had to sit for the first 4 games of the season as part of KU's self-imposed sanctions to try to finally get the outstanding NCAA case against KANSAS and Self and Assistant Coach Kurtis Townsend settled..

60+ WIN CONSECUTIVE SEASONS
70 wins AY2006-07 and AY2007-08
68 wins AY2009-10 and AY2010-11
67 wins AY2010-11 and AY2011-12
64 wins (a) AY2007-08 and AY 2008-09 (b) AY2015-16 and AY2016-17
63 wins AY2011-12 and AY2012-13
62 wins AY2016-17 and AY2017-18

Despite the NCAA case still not being settled as I write this, the lifetime contract -- and frankly, the lack of any significant punishment being meted out by the NCAA to programs like Arizona -- seems to be having a positive impact on recruiting if having the Rivals #3 recruiting class for 2022 and one of the top recruiting classes for 2023 so far (Rivals #18, 247Sports #11, ESPN #13) is any indication.

Phog was forcibly retired after the AY1955-56 season due to a Kansas state law requiring state employees to retire at 70. He petitioned for an exemption so he would be able to coach sophomore Wilt Chamberlain in his NCAA varsity debut season, but was denied. His assistant Dick Harp took over as head coach. When Phog retired his record was
KANSAS 39 years
• 1 NCAA Tournament Championship (1952), 2 Helms National Championships (1922, 1923)
• 3 Final Fours (1940, 1952, 1953) and 3 NC games in 18 years of NCAA Tournament existence
• 24 Conference Regular Season Championships
• Career W-L: Kansas 590-219 (.729), total 746-264 (0.739)

Even when the day comes that Bill passes Phog's totals to become the winningest coach in KANSAS history, he will still be the 2nd winningest men's basketball coach for his whole career to ever coach at KANSAS.

Roy only stayed at KU long enough to record a 418-101 KANSAS record, but he went on to pass Phog in Career wins with his alma mater. Roy, who turned 71 in August 2021, retired April 1, 2021. His record after 33 years -
KANSAS 15 years
• 4 Final Fours (1991, 1993, 2002, 2003); 2 NC games (1991, 2003)
• 9 Conference Regular Season Championships (Big 8: 5; Big 12: 4)
• Kansas W-L: 418-101 (.808)
NORTH CAROLINA 18 years
• 3 NCAA Championships (2005, 2009, 2017)
• 5 Final Fours (2005, 2008, 2009, 2016, 2017); 4 NC games (2005, 2009, 2016, 2017)
• 9 Conference Regular Season Championships
• UNC W-L: 483-163 (748)
• CAREER: W-L: 903-264 (.774), 18 Conference Regular Season Championships

Bill (who turned 60 in December 2022) still has a long way to go after 29 seasons (conservatively another 6 seasons if he averages 25 wins per season) to catch and pass Roy in total career wins and be the winningest head coach ever to coach at KANSAS.

How much longer will Bill Self coach?
I'd love to see him coach for another 10 seasons (starting with this season) for 39 total seasons coaching, retiring at 70 in 2033 and winning over 1000 games in his career.

But what does Bill think, you say?

See
KC Star: KU coach Bill Self addresses NBA rumors: ‘I look forward to being here for a long time’ by Sam Mellinger.

and

KUSports.com - Tait: Kansas basketball coach Bill Self signs lifetime contract extension with KU (2021-04-02)

*NB:
AY2021-22 final record was 34-6

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Last Edit: 1 year 3 weeks ago by HawkErrant.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jaythawk1

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
1 year 3 weeks ago #30516 by HawkErrant
RCB: Self’s KU record update

Adjusted data table after learning KU is counting the first 4 wins of the season in Self’s record.

WON-LOST
at KU____ ( % ) NAME_________ CAREER ( % )
590-219 (.729) Phog Allen___ 746-264 (.739)
581-129 (.818) BILL SELF_____ 788-234 (.771)
418-101 (.808) Roy Williams_ 903-264 (.774)


10 = Potential games left in AY2022-23 if KU makes the finals in both the Big 12 and NCAA Tournaments.
9 = Wins to tie Phog as winningest Head Coach in KANSAS history.
115 = Wins to tie Roy as THE winningest KANSAS Head Coach for TOTAL CAREER

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
1 year 2 weeks ago #30567 by HawkErrant
SELF'S record at the end of the regular season.

WON-LOST
at KU____ ( % ) NAME_________ CAREER ( % )
590-219 (.729) Phog Allen___ 746-264 (.739)
581-130 (.817) BILL SELF_____ 788-235 (.770)
418-101 (.808) Roy Williams_ 903-264 (.774)


9 = Potential games left in AY2022-23 if KU makes the finals in both the Big 12 and NCAA Tournaments.
9 = Wins to tie Phog as winningest Head Coach in KANSAS history.
115 = Wins to tie Roy as THE winningest KANSAS Head Coach for TOTAL CAREER[/quote]

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
10 months 3 weeks ago - 10 months 3 weeks ago #31036 by HawkErrant
Here is BILL SELF'S career record after the end of AY2022-23.

His record is adjusted in this entry for games that the NCAA has attributed to Norm Roberts.

Prior to the season KU suspended Bill Self and Kurtis Townsend for 4 games as part of institution-imposed punishment related to the ongoing NCAA case. KU Athletics publicly stated when announcing the suspensions that those 4 games to be coached by Norm Roberts would not be attributed to Bill, but would instead be counted as "program" games.

In line with that the official NCAA records at the end of AY2022-23 have recorded Norm's 4-0 early season record as Norm's.

The rest of the games for AY2022-23, including the B12T and NCAAT games where Norm again acted as HC due to Bill's health crisis?

The NCAA accounts for them - 3 wins, 2 losses - as Bill's.

So the AY2022-23 season totals ended up -
24-8 Bill Self
4-0 Norm Roberts

And accordingly, the final OFFICIAL NCAA KANSAS and career records for Bill Self after this past season are reflected below.

NCAA WON-LOST RECORDS OF WINNINGEST KANSAS COACHES
at KU          NAME         CAREER  
590-219 (.729) Phog Allen   746-264 (.739)
580-132 (.815) BILL SELF    787-237 (.769)
418-101 (.808) Roy Williams 903-264 (.774)
10 = Wins to tie Phog as winningest Head Coach in KANSAS history.
116 = Wins to tie Roy as THE winningest KANSAS Head Coach for TOTAL CAREER

Self should pass both Phog and 800 wins next season.
Link to NCAA database KANSAS head coaches records

BACKGROUND
(This section seldom changes during the course of the season, but is copied in each new post for easy reference.)
Last Update: 2023-05-07


With AY2021-22's 34-6 record and NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, Bill was mathematically positioned to be able to pass Phog by the end of the AY2022-23 postseason. It would have required winning 35 games in AY2022-23. With his four game suspension to start the year and the loss against Tennessee in the Battle for Atlantis, KANSAS would have had to run the table the rest of the way to pass Phog. Ah, if only...

FWIW: in his 20 years at KANSAS Bill's teams have won 69 games or more in two consecutive seasons just once, so the odds were against him racking up 35 Ws for AY2022-23 even before he had to sit for the first 4 games of the season as part of KU's self-imposed sanctions to try to finally get the outstanding NCAA case against KANSAS and Self and Assistant Coach Kurtis Townsend settled.

BILL SELF AT KANSAS
>=60 WINS in TWO CONSECUTIVE SEASONS (Σ=9 times)
BY MOST WINS OVER 2 YEARS           BY CONSECUTIVE AYs
70 wins AY2006-07 and AY2007-08     70 wins AY2006-07 and AY2007-08
68 wins AY2009-10 and AY2010-11     64 wins AY2007-08 and AY2008-09 
67 wins AY2010-11 and AY2011-12     60 wins AY2008-09 and AY2009-10
64 wins AY2007-08 and AY2008-09     68 wins AY2009-10 and AY2010-11
64 wins AY2015-16 and AY2016-17     67 wins AY2010-11 and AY2011-12
63 wins AY2011-12 and AY2012-13     63 wins AY2011-12 and AY2012-13
62 wins AY2016-17 and AY2017-18     60 wins AY2014-15 and AY2015-16
60 wins AY2008-09 and AY2009-10     64 wins AY2015-16 and AY2016-17
60 wins AY2014-15 and AY2015-16     62 wins AY2016-17 and AY2017-18

MORE HISTORY - PHOG "DOC" ALLEN & ROY WILLIAMS

Phog was forcibly retired after the AY1955-56 season due to a Kansas state law requiring state employees to retire at 70. He petitioned for an exemption so he would be able to coach sophomore Wilt Chamberlain in his NCAA varsity debut season, but was denied, and assistant coach Dick Harp took over as head coach. When Phog retired his record was -

KANSAS 39 years
• 1 NCAA Tournament Championship (1952), 2 Helms National Championships (1922, 1923)
• 3 Final Fours (1940, 1952, 1953) and 3 NC games in 18 years of NCAA Tournament existence
• 24 Conference Regular Season Championships
• Career W-L: Kansas 590-219 (.729), total 746-264 (0.739)

Even when the day comes that Bill passes Phog's totals to become the winningest coach in KANSAS history, he will still be the 2nd winningest men's basketball coach for his whole career to ever coach at KANSAS.

Roy only stayed at KU long enough to record a 418-101 KANSAS record, but he went on to pass Phog in Career wins with his alma mater. Roy, who turned 71 in August 2021, retired April 1, 2021. His record after 33 years -

KANSAS 15 years
• 4 Final Fours (1991, 1993, 2002, 2003); 2 NC games (1991, 2003)
• 9 Conference Regular Season Championships (Big 8: 5; Big 12: 4)
• Kansas W-L: 418-101 (.808)
NORTH CAROLINA 18 years
• 3 NCAA Championships (2005, 2009, 2017)
• 5 Final Fours (2005, 2008, 2009, 2016, 2017); 4 NC games (2005, 2009, 2016, 2017)
• 9 Conference Regular Season Championships
• UNC W-L: 483-163 (748)
• CAREER: W-L: 903-264 (.774), 18 Conference RS Championships, 9 Final Fours, 3 NCs

BILL SELF - THE FUTURE?

Bill (who turned 60 in December 2022) still has a long way to go after 30 seasons (conservatively another 6 seasons if he averages 25 wins per season) to catch and pass Roy in total career wins and be the winningest head coach ever to coach at KANSAS.

How much longer will Bill Self coach?

I'd love to see him coach for another 10 seasons for 40 total seasons coaching, retiring at 70 in 2033 and winning over 1000 games in his career.

And after recovering from his March health crisis, Bill is really fired up to continue, full speed ahead, to coach at KANSAS and to take the program to (paraphrasing him) "new heights" (which is saying quite a lot!)

And of course, he has his lifetime contract...
KUSports.com - Tait: Kansas basketball coach Bill Self signs lifetime contract extension with KU (2021-04-02)

Here's to Bill continuing to enjoy his KANSAS career for years to come!

NB:
AY2021-22 final record was 34-6 - Big 12, Big 12 Tournament and NCAA CHAMPIONS!
AY2022-23 final record was 28-8 - Big 12 Champions!
(24-8 Bill Self; 4-0 Norm Roberts)

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Last Edit: 10 months 3 weeks ago by HawkErrant. Reason: added link to NCAA.org Kansas Head Coaches records; formatting; amending BACKGROUND section
The following user(s) said Thank You: porthawk, hoshi

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Powered by Kunena Forum