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Rock Chalk Talk: Basketball
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Stray thought: If not for the lean years under Ted Owens...
8 years 3 months ago #2892
by konza63
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
...the KU-ConTucky all-time series record would be far closer, and much more in line with the two programs' respective statures.
To wit, the series now stands at ConTucky 22, KU 7. That's horrible. They've literally owned us.
But during the Ted lean years, which were quite clearly our darkest days as a program,* ConTucky reeled off 12 out of 13 victories. 1-12 for KU. That is mind-numbing, and explains the gross disparity in the series.
If we pretend for a moment that we never played the Wildcats during that period, the all-time series would stand at ConTucky 10, KU 6. Obviously far more respectable.
Anyway, a stray thought for sure, and you can't change the past, but those lean years (no offense to Robisch, JoJo, Darnell, and some of the greats who still came through then) really did hurt us in this particular case--as well as the lack of elite postseason success.
*****************
* Dr. Naismith's losing record doesn't count--inventors don't always make the best practitioners.
To wit, the series now stands at ConTucky 22, KU 7. That's horrible. They've literally owned us.
But during the Ted lean years, which were quite clearly our darkest days as a program,* ConTucky reeled off 12 out of 13 victories. 1-12 for KU. That is mind-numbing, and explains the gross disparity in the series.
If we pretend for a moment that we never played the Wildcats during that period, the all-time series would stand at ConTucky 10, KU 6. Obviously far more respectable.
Anyway, a stray thought for sure, and you can't change the past, but those lean years (no offense to Robisch, JoJo, Darnell, and some of the greats who still came through then) really did hurt us in this particular case--as well as the lack of elite postseason success.
*****************
* Dr. Naismith's losing record doesn't count--inventors don't always make the best practitioners.
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
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8 years 3 months ago #3025
by konza63
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
The really solid Matt Norlander piece that I posted earlier, as its own thread...
mweb.cbssports.com/ncaab/eye-on-college-...ould-play-every-year
...once again got me to shaking my head about the Ted Owens years as it relates to KU hoops, and specifically KU playing UK. Reading this paragraph just makes me want to throw up:
The teams started their series in 1950. For the next 18 years, they played only once. Then, from 1969 until 1985, they played every year except in 1970. There was a fleeting home-and-home revival in '89 and '90. It's been irregular ever since. Kentucky, surprisingly, leads the all-time series between these teams at 22-7. The fact they've only played 29 times despite 230 seasons between them, it boggles the mind.
As most of you know, Ted Owens coached KU from 1964-83. So let's break this UK "dominance" over KU down a bit further:
* For some bizarre reason, KU never played UK prior to 1950, which meant that the vast majority of the powerful teams under Doc Allen never got to take a shot at UK. (Translation: A missed KU opportunity to get out in front early on)
* Then, for some TRULY bizarre reason, the powers that be at KU during the lean years (Ted himself? The AD? Ted and the AD?) decided to initiate a long-running annual series with UK, when that program was running high and mighty and KU's was at its absolute nadir.
* The result was a monumental curb-stomping by UK that forever skewed the blueblood series record. To wit, 12 wins in 13 games for Rupp and Joe B. Hall over the Ted Owens-coached Jayhawks...and an overall UK advantage heading into the Brown/Williams/Self years of 14-1.
* In 1983, after Larry Brown arrived, UK beat us pretty good at AFH (in a game I attended and remember well). But even in that early-season loss, I could see that we were beginning to build something. And that UK team was a FF-bound squad with Kenny Walker, Sam Bowie, Melvin Telpurn, and others.
* In 1984, an increasingly capable KU team played a super tight game at UK, but came up short (92-89). Almost there...
* The tide turned definitively in 1985, when that fantastic KU team (which would roll all the way into the Final Four, but come up short due to Archie Marshall's knee injury and some horrible officiating in the Puke FF game) rolled over the Wildcats 83-68 at AFH.
* At that point, KU had clearly arrived (i.e., re-emerged after the dark period) and was definitively back on UK's level. Unfortunately, for reasons that aren't clear, the annual home-home series then stopped (just when we were getting good), except for a brief home-home under Roy in '89-'90 (including the famous 150-95 shellacking of Pitino's boys at AFH).
* After that, the series was completely shelved.
Summary:
* Pre-'84 KU record against UK: 1-14
* Post-'84 KU record against UK: 6-8 (one more win and we'd be at .500)
My only point in all of this is that it would be nice to have the national "narrative" surrounding the KU-UK series be less about UK's complete dominance (22-7) and more about the programs playing very evenly except for the era in which UK was at its apex and KU was at its nadir--which just so happened to be the ONE time when the programs scheduled a very long-running, uninterrupted home-home series. A period, in other words, that was a very marked anomaly and which greatly skewed the all-time series record in UK's favor. Much to the chagrin of proud KU fans like me...and perhaps others?
FWIW...
mweb.cbssports.com/ncaab/eye-on-college-...ould-play-every-year
...once again got me to shaking my head about the Ted Owens years as it relates to KU hoops, and specifically KU playing UK. Reading this paragraph just makes me want to throw up:
The teams started their series in 1950. For the next 18 years, they played only once. Then, from 1969 until 1985, they played every year except in 1970. There was a fleeting home-and-home revival in '89 and '90. It's been irregular ever since. Kentucky, surprisingly, leads the all-time series between these teams at 22-7. The fact they've only played 29 times despite 230 seasons between them, it boggles the mind.
As most of you know, Ted Owens coached KU from 1964-83. So let's break this UK "dominance" over KU down a bit further:
* For some bizarre reason, KU never played UK prior to 1950, which meant that the vast majority of the powerful teams under Doc Allen never got to take a shot at UK. (Translation: A missed KU opportunity to get out in front early on)
* Then, for some TRULY bizarre reason, the powers that be at KU during the lean years (Ted himself? The AD? Ted and the AD?) decided to initiate a long-running annual series with UK, when that program was running high and mighty and KU's was at its absolute nadir.
* The result was a monumental curb-stomping by UK that forever skewed the blueblood series record. To wit, 12 wins in 13 games for Rupp and Joe B. Hall over the Ted Owens-coached Jayhawks...and an overall UK advantage heading into the Brown/Williams/Self years of 14-1.
* In 1983, after Larry Brown arrived, UK beat us pretty good at AFH (in a game I attended and remember well). But even in that early-season loss, I could see that we were beginning to build something. And that UK team was a FF-bound squad with Kenny Walker, Sam Bowie, Melvin Telpurn, and others.
* In 1984, an increasingly capable KU team played a super tight game at UK, but came up short (92-89). Almost there...
* The tide turned definitively in 1985, when that fantastic KU team (which would roll all the way into the Final Four, but come up short due to Archie Marshall's knee injury and some horrible officiating in the Puke FF game) rolled over the Wildcats 83-68 at AFH.
* At that point, KU had clearly arrived (i.e., re-emerged after the dark period) and was definitively back on UK's level. Unfortunately, for reasons that aren't clear, the annual home-home series then stopped (just when we were getting good), except for a brief home-home under Roy in '89-'90 (including the famous 150-95 shellacking of Pitino's boys at AFH).
* After that, the series was completely shelved.
Summary:
* Pre-'84 KU record against UK: 1-14
* Post-'84 KU record against UK: 6-8 (one more win and we'd be at .500)
My only point in all of this is that it would be nice to have the national "narrative" surrounding the KU-UK series be less about UK's complete dominance (22-7) and more about the programs playing very evenly except for the era in which UK was at its apex and KU was at its nadir--which just so happened to be the ONE time when the programs scheduled a very long-running, uninterrupted home-home series. A period, in other words, that was a very marked anomaly and which greatly skewed the all-time series record in UK's favor. Much to the chagrin of proud KU fans like me...and perhaps others?
FWIW...
“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”
1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.