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No Joy in Mudville

  • AZhawk87
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8 years 3 months ago #2030 by AZhawk87
To me, there is a lingering, palpable lack of joy coming from both the players and Self. It showed in spades last night. I believe it all started when we began landing the highest level OAD's a few years ago. We've all talked about it on this board the past couple of years.

I think Self continues to struggle finding a system that bows to the expectations of OAD's for playing time, and still honors his "earn it" philosophy that tends to reward upper classmen.

Greene had the cajones to voice his displeasure, but he cannot be the only guy who feels the same way (when does Mickelson blow his top?). Finding court time for every player just doesn't work, and I saw last night a tired team that looked frustrated and out of sorts mentally. I also continue to see Self look exasperated and angry most of the time.

I hope this is a funk, and we play out of it. But getting smoked by an average team without its star player (Forte) is tough to understand.

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8 years 3 months ago #2032 by Bayhawk
A thoughtful post in the clear light of a new day. Thanks AZ,

RC

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-- Jules Michelet

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8 years 3 months ago #2033 by LSHawk
I really didn't like the shots of HCBS sitting, leaning, chin in hand, expressionless face....

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8 years 3 months ago #2035 by konza63
I didn't like his post game comments, either. He said our guys played with good energy, but OSU just outplayed us.

A very mediocre OSU team playing without Forte just outplayed us...the #3-ranked team in the land, with a bevy of much more experienced players, playing in a game in which Self said beforehand we needed to step it up to get out of the funk.

As HE would say, things that make you go Hmmmm....

“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”

1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.

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8 years 3 months ago #2043 by Senex68
I'm not a psychologist, but I am old, and have been human for most of my life. Ergo, I do have some insight into human behavior and why humans behave as they do. And I have a few observations about this team and its coach.

First of all, as several of you have commented, the team appears to lack happiness. That is not to say that they are never happy, but generally their emotions are situational rather than a function of their overall mental condition. They appear to be mechanical and forced, rather than instinctive and flowing, in their execution. And they don't appear to be terribly interested in changing that mindset. Very odd.

Second, they have almost all regressed in their approach to the game. Frank is a freshman again, forcing drives without considering the possibility that a teammate might actually be in a better position to score. No kick-outs to the 3 point line. Just drives into crowds, leading to blocked shots and bad shots. As a result, Selden is also a freshman again, forcing 3s, and driving into crowds of defenders. And Perry has completely stopped shooting his 12-15 foot shots, and relentlessly tries to force himself into the rim area, also getting stuffed, and attempting well defensed layups. Again, his shots are not going in, and there is no reason to believe that they will. Our centers can't or won't shoot, so we are almost always playing 4 on 5 on offense. Landen is the worst interior shooter I've ever seen, but interestingly has a decent foul line area jumper, which (of course) he never takes. If he took one and actually hit it, it would force a defender to cover him, opening up the interior.

We have poor spacing too. A team that was assisting on 70% of its baskets is not down to 30%. Not good.

And Self either cannot find a way to change this situation or is giving up on this team. And I have to mention Mickelson. Every one of us wonders what exactly Hunter did to so profoundly insult the coach. I could do a 20 minute stand up routine on the various theories we all have considered as to how Hunter has offended Self, but it must be affecting his teammates. Unless Hunter is a misanthrope in practice, or doesn't shower, or mumbles profanities while he sits on the bench, this expulsion from the team (which it certainly appears to be) is incomprehensible. Even the guys who are getting his time must be wondering why.

In short, this is a team on the cusp of implosion. Mysteries without any clues are exacerbating a group of very frustrated and unhappy young men, who collectively teeter on the edge of disaster. If Self can turn it around, he deserves his pay, but if this team continues on its road to perdition, I wonder about Self's future at KU.

"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”

Glenn Reynolds
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8 years 3 months ago #2050 by Wheatstate Gal
Happy.

As my balloon was deflating last evening, I thought: "the kids don't look happy. They aren't having fun."

I was afraid to say it...I thought it sounded silly. Happy.

I do have a question: if not HCBS? Who?

I'm just curious. If we had a magic lamp, whom would we wish for?

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8 years 3 months ago #2072 by konza63
We all can agree that this team is in a bit of a tailspin and needs to get out of it. Fast. But in your thoughtful post, Peter, you closed with this comment:

If Self can turn it around, he deserves his pay, but if this team continues on its road to perdition, I wonder about Self's future at KU.

I'm curious about that thought, since they way it was written leaves it open to interpretation.

Are you saying that you could envision a scenario in which Self's job is on the line if this year's team craters? Or are you saying that something might be going on with Self that would compel him to ponder a future that doesn't include KU? (E.G., he's burned out, distracted, wants a change of scenery, or something else)

I ask this because it was such a starkly phrased comment, and one you just don't typically see or hear on this board (i.e., opining that Self might need to look elsewhere, or that he himself might do so). I seriously hope that doesn't happen, and that there isn't any groundswell among fans to think that way, as I still think he's one of the top 5 college coaches in the land. KU would have a very hard time finding someone as solid as him if he were to ever leave, and many would be saddened by the success he would build with another program if he did.

Anyway, I'm just curious about the thinking behind that rather jarring closing comment. Thanks.

“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”

1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
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8 years 3 months ago #2101 by Senex68
The answer to your question is, at least to me, fairly obvious. Bill Self is at the top of a very large pyramid, along with perhaps another dozen Division 1 coaches. And a few of those have jobs at less prestigious programs, which makes their jobs less stressful and less precarious. He got to this rather elite station by winning, and winning at a rate which has moved him into 'all time great' status.

But for one or more reasons, his ability to do his job at his historically great level of performance is under attack. Not open and public, but private and low key, but it is there. Rumors about his personal life have percolated through the alum population for at least 3 years. And they are not 'good' rumors. But as far as anyone can tell, they are just rumors.

He has won a national championship at KU, but has coached teams that had great talent, and watched as those teams flamed out in the NCAAs. And that has led to low level but persistent criticism of his coaching style, which has modestly eroded support for him among some alums and students. And this year's team has begun to unravel, a totally unexpected phenomenon, given the experience and talent that are the hallmarks of the team. So I believe that if the team fails to meet our always elevated expectations, Self's aura of invincibility will take some hits, and if this season is followed by another underperforming team, we may see some open opposition to keeping him as head coach.

I'm not taking the position that he's on the way out. That would be absurd, and under the most pessimistic of outlooks, utterly premature. But at his age, and given the stresses of the job, it is not inconceivable that 2 or 3 years of adversity would give him reason to look elsewhere, or even just retire. Imagine, if you will, if the OSU job opens again, and he's offered 10 plus million. Could he refuse? Would he refuse if KU had been underperforming? Or what if Krshycshewbsky retired after this season, Or next? Would Self be considered as a replacement?

I don't think he's going anywhere, but in the world of high risk and higher reward, a couple of mediocre or even just plain bad seasons could make him look around, and sometimes if you look for something, you will find it.

"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”

Glenn Reynolds
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8 years 3 months ago #2104 by Wheatstate Gal
Is it just us, or are the Dukies, Kentucky, MSU freaking out and wondering about their current coaches tenure/ability? I presume the response may be that we feel that those coaches are having an off year when parity seems supreme....and that we are heading for a flame out yet again?

I cannot help but think: 11 consecutive conference championships (and not in the Big West/Ivy League), umpteen successive NCAA appearances, how many consecutive weeks in the top 25?

I guess I'm looking for some joy, and hoping for a surge. I was going to say resurgence....I'm not sure we've surged yet.

Thanks.

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8 years 3 months ago - 8 years 3 months ago #2116 by konza63
Thanks for putting some meat on those bones. The way you initially closed that tee-up post left it open to interpretation.

Based on what you're saying, you're positing a potential (hopefully remote, but potential) push-pull dynamic in which Self takes some hits, which makes some other positions (like OSU) look more favorable to him than they did in the past.

That's a plausible scenario, but at this point I'm hoping (and I'm sure you are too) that it's what scenario analysts refer to as a "wild-card" or "black swan" outcome: high impact but low probability.

Self is a great coach. But for reasons that vary across observant fans and commentators, he's had some real problems recently with translating regular season success into solid postseason performance.

I would add that KU seems to be slipping in the recruiting arena, which has to fall squarely in the full coaching staff's lap. Increasingly, we seem to nab fewer and fewer of the early signings (top tier) relative to our primary national competitors, and we also seem to be getting less and less of the top-tier recruits themselves. Witness our current starting 1 and 2 guards, both of whom initially signed with very small schools (weren't on the national radar, much less for the elite schools), only to see us swoop in and pick them up when we hit a point of desperation at the lead-guard position. And for the forthcoming 2016-17 season, if not for just one signing of a guy who grew up loving KU (ranked 64th overall), we'd be looking at a very glaring "donut" right now...long after the early signings have been wrapped up.*

Given the above, I sincerely hope that Self takes a good, objective look at his staff after this season, and honestly asks if he could be doing better. In the meantime, we can only hope that he rights the current team ship and gets them to perform to their highest individual and collective capacity--for if they do, there's a lot of good basketball still to be played by this team.

Chin up, head up. I believe in Self. (Though I personally do not view him or any other coach as invincible, infallible, or omnipotent--nor do I believe he or they should be treated as such.)

Rock Chalk...


[/b]

* Footnote: ESPN Top 50 Recruits signed (illustrative elite schools), 2016-17

ConTucky 5 (4 in the top 15)
Puke 4 (3 in the top 11)
Michigan State 4
Kansas 0

“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”

1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Last Edit: 8 years 3 months ago by konza63.

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8 years 3 months ago #2117 by Illhawk
While the Longhorns were beating West Virginia the announcers said in passing that snowfall had delayed the teams arrival at the arena, but that HCSS had not went off, started blaming somebody or otherwise loosing poise.

Maybe there is ziltch to it but did a recent visiting coach launch a tirade as the bus idled through the snow and traffic Morgantown?

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8 years 3 months ago #2119 by murphyslaw
From occasional mild criticism over the years resulting from fans' disappointment, to speculation on Bill Self's future as the 'Hawks' coach. That has been the unfortunate progression I have seen during the long time I've been posting on this board. Now, not only are there more comments and criticisms about his coaching skills, there is an indication on this board that there are troubles in his personal life--"rumors, of course." (A poster who has been noticeably absent for quite some time, known mainly for comments on the political board, once posted a comment about Coach Self's supposed marital problems. No one commented on it, and I was glad that it seemed to have disappeared.)

I'm reminded of the way Richard Dreyfuss' character on An American President began and perpetuated a smear campaign.

The right to free speech is sacred, of course, and I mean no disrespect with this post.

However, I do wish we would not use the team's losses and rumors of troubles in Self's personal life as weapons against a well-respected, talented coach who reportedly will be in the Hall of Fame. Personally, although I can imagine his leaving for his own reasons, I can't feature anyone else in his present role.
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8 years 3 months ago #2122 by Bayhawk
Where in Kansas is Mudville?

;-]

RC

The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet

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8 years 3 months ago #2123 by HawkErrant
Bay, I understand Mudville is a short drive east of Smallville. ;)

RC!

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"

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8 years 3 months ago #2124 by Bayhawk
Ha!!

Meanwhile, this wait is killin' me. Until I see the "old" 'hawks hit the hardwood I am holding my breath . . .

Steaks (bevo) on the grill tomorrow night, ;-]

RC

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8 years 3 months ago #2126 by murphyslaw
Recent maps show that it's between A Rock and A Hard Place, directly south of I70.

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