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Interesting interview

  • Hawknmo
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8 years 3 months ago #1939 by Hawknmo
I know not everyone listens to KC radio but if you can get the podcast I recommend it. Mike DeCourcy was on 810 WHB this morning talking college basketball specifically KU. When asked about KUs chances in March his response was what many have said on this board. Winning the league is a great thing and helps tremendously in seeding, but if KU wants to go deep in March the eyes to need to look further down the road. Also read....possibly lose some Jan and Feb games to be better in March. Not that we wre going to lose the TCU game but getting Bragg and Diallo in was huge. Yes, Lucas helped win the OU game but what if those two guys had been in? Maybe, because either one of them can actually score, the game doesn't even go to OT? We will never know. Yes I love wearing my multiple Big 12 title shirts. Yes HCBS is a smart guy who doesn't need to be fired. But I think its entirely possible way too much emphasis has been placed on winning the league and not a deep drive in the NCAAs. Not just by the coach either. We as fans have gone down that same path. I thought it was interesting and possibly a bit "telling" that an outsider pointed that out.

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8 years 3 months ago #1941 by NotOstertag
I see it differently to a certain extent. I think HCBS wants to win EVERY game, and puts his best team on the floor every night.

I can see the argument that maybe you sacrifice some losses early in the year in order to "train" your one and done superstars, but I'm not buying it.

I'd argue that some of our better teams hit snags that were not only unforeseeable, but also happened late in the year, and combined with the crapshoot that is the NCAA one-and-out format, gave us the (lack of) results we saw.
>Last year: Cliff was tracking to be a heavy contributor inside, but then gets booted in the last few weeks of the season and post season. Combine that with Perry's being injured, and the team that arrived in March was a derailed version of where the team was trending in February.
>2 years ago: Wiggins and Embiid are the new superstars anchoring a great and pretty deep team. Embiid gets hurt late in the year and again the trajectory is altered negatively.

Just thinking that sometimes people forget that these kids practice every day. Yes, game minutes are important, but if you try to win every game, that seems like a pretty good model since "every game" includes the post season.

"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot

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8 years 3 months ago #1943 by Bayhawk
;) It never gets old!!!!

RC

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-- Jules Michelet
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8 years 3 months ago - 8 years 3 months ago #1944 by konza63
To just put it all out there right up front, my "eye test" tells me that a KU team heading into the gauntlet of March Madness that still features a stream of Lucas, Traylor, and Mickelson (or one thereof) as the complement to Ellis will have a tough time making it to the final game, much less cutting down the nets. That's just what my basketball gut tells me at this juncture, despite the fact (reality) that there are no truly great teams in the NCAA field this year.

It ultimately comes down to this: Do you continue to play to your ceiling and comfort zone (with the seasoned guys) so you win more regular season games, or do you play to your upside and temporarily uncomfortable zone (with Diallo and Bragg) so that you have a better shot to win it all come April?

With the seasoned guys, our margin for error will be slim to none against the best teams (who will have rounded out and stepped up their games) by April. And it doesn't have to be a zero-sum thing. In other words, it's not like the seasoned guys won't get any minutes--it's just that you're reversing the distribution that we have now, so that the bulk of the minutes go to the upside/younger/more athletic guys rather than the other way around.

Here are some fascinating numbers that underscore just how much KU is truly an anomaly this season when it comes to being willing and committed to playing/developing its elite big-man talent. Of the fourteen 2015 ESPN top 30 freshman recruits now playing at the Center or Power Forward positions for the various schools, our two guys (Diallo and Bragg) rank second and third to last, respectively, in average minutes per game. Diallo is only playing 9.5 MPG, Bragg is getting 11.2, and the only player among all of the acclaimed top 30 freshmen in those positions getting less is Chase Jeter of Duke, at 8.1. By contrast, here's what the others are getting:

Ben Simmons, LSU PF: 33.8
Henry Ellenson, Marquette PF: 32.3
Diamond Stone, Maryland C: 20.7
Skal Labissiere, Kentucky C: 17.8
Ivan Rabb, Cal PF: 26.5
Caleb Swanigan, Purdue C: 26.3
Stephen Zimmerman, UNLV C: 24.4
Thomas Bryant, Indiana C: 22.5
Deyonta Davis, Michigan State PF: 17.6
Dedric Lawson, Memphis PF: 29.8
Tyler Davis, Texas A&M C: 21.1

Looking at those numbers, we can see that most players are logging 20+ minutes per game. Indeed, for that set of 12 players (excluding Bragg and Diallo but including the other anomaly--Jeter at Duke), the average MPG is 23.4... The delta between that figure and Diallo and Bragg's minutes (again, 9.5 and 11.2, respectively) is simply staggering.

This tells me that something is very much amiss...all the more so since Self has exhibited palpable uncertainty about who can man the 5 spot most effectively all season long. At a minimum, it raises some intriguing questions:

* Are both Bragg and Diallo recruiting duds, relative to their high-level recruit peer group? In other words, did the KU staff whiff in this class?

[When I saw that freshman center Diamond Stone of Maryland--rated only one slot ahead of Diallo at #6 among all incoming recruits--put up 39 in a game that Maryland otherwise might have lost a couple weeks ago, it does make you shake your head...]

* Were Bragg and Diallo instead just overrated, and their development is going to be more of a 2-year process than a 1-year breakout?

[Personally I find that hard to believe with Bragg, who was the best player in Cleveland high school/AAU ball...but perhaps it could be true of Diallo, in that he's still learning the game and he had his development path disrupted by NCAA knuckle-dragging at the start of the season]

* Is Self too wedded to his comfort zone--in this case, to defaulting routinely to his more known and veteran bigs, even when he himself exhibits frustration at their ability to step up and be a force opposite Perry? And if he is, does that represent a "blind spot" of sorts--that is, an imperative to win in the present, at the expense of building a potentially more explosive team in March-April?

* Has something gone awry with KU's ability to successfully train (and ramp up the development of) our big men?

[We saw this last year with Cliff, and the gap between incoming expectations and game play for both Diallo and Bragg is considerable. To rehash an ongoing question from the past for the board, did the departure of Danny and Dooley fundamentally impact our ability to train elite bigs?]

* What does Self see with Mickelson's play (in practice or on the court) that makes him reluctant to give him ample more minutes?

[The general sense among observers, to include the data/analytics crowd, is he should get more time on the floor if Diallo and Bragg are not going to, just to see if he is the last hope among our seasoned bigs to become a very capable offensive and defensive player opposite Perry]

* If Self does ultimately decide to go more with Diallo and Bragg (or one thereof), can we all live with the potential ups and downs and the possibly negative impact on KU's regular season success?

[Let's be honest--Diallo and Bragg also make us all cringe at times, just like our experienced guys. So it's a pick your poison situation. And we might have to suffer through some losses in order to get them the experience and "team gelling" time they need. I wish this had happened earlier, before the slate of more competitive games, but it is what it is...]

I'm sure there are other questions I missed, but those are the ones that jump out to me. And keep in mind a few things before you and others throw your "How dare you!" and "Self is God" darts at me:

* I love Bill Self and wouldn't trade him for any other coach. My past posts on here, including probably the most exhaustive look at his wining prowess ever posted on this board (his potential to reach Coach K's heights in wins one day), underscore this point. But he's human, we're fans, and this is a legitimate question mark with our team.

* My post is put forth strictly in the context of competing for and potentially winning a national championship, not about doing great in the Big 12, etc. It's about avoiding an early exit in March-April that sadly has been our fate of late.

* Even if we don't make changes and shift toward upside development, we'll still win a ton of games, possibly win the Big 12 championship, and get a nice tourney seed. It's what comes after that that sticking with the status quo approach (what we've tried so far this season) scares me. And speaking for me, a flameout this year (given the IMMENSE talent on this roster, combined with the experience in our backcourt and with Ellis) would be a huge, huge, huge disappointment. All the more so since the national competition is such that this year's crown is very winnable in comparison to some seasons when there's a clear juggernaut in our path (see: 2011-2012).

* This is just opinion, and it's meant to provoke as much as anything else. We might as well talk about something other than sleepwalking games with TCU!

Thoughts/reactions/counter-perspectives welcome. Let's discuss...

“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”

1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Last Edit: 8 years 3 months ago by konza63.
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8 years 3 months ago #1946 by NotOstertag
I think you missed another explanation, Konza: Do these other teams have as much depth in the post?

If you assume Perry will play the majority of the game (barring foul trouble or injury) that leaves us a long list of "complimentary" guys: Mickleson, Lucas, Traylor, Bragg, and Diallo. If split equally, that would come out to 40/5 = 8 minutes each. Ok, so Perry's going to sit (on average) 10 minutes a game, so that's 50 minutes to divide up, or 10 minutes per guy.

Based on that, here's who's playing what (based on the full year):
Diallo: 9.5 minutes
Bragg: 11.2 minutes
Lucas: 13.0 minutes
Mickleson: 9.6 minutes
Traylor: 13.9 minutes

Looking at it that way, and with 50 minutes to split, the real anomaly is Lucas who doesn't (at least to we here on the board) seem to be aligned so well. Bragg is getting more than his hare, and Diallo (who I think we all admit is pretty raw) is basically at his average. Traylor, the other anomaly is a different story because his role is pretty well defined as Perry's sub and/or "Mr. Energy" and/or "We need a guy to play physically" guy.

In more recent news, I'll looks at Bragg and Diallo specifically. In the OU game, HCBS played a tight roster and Bragg only got 3 minutes. I can't fault Self for that based on what was at stake, and the need for experienced defense in that brawl. @Tech, however, he played 14 minutes. @WVU, however, another dogfight where HCBS obviously favored experience, he played 6. Finally vs. TCU, he played 16. So in the case of Bragg, it looks like HCBS is doing a good job of developing him. Finally, Bragg is already a pretty polished player, so he's likely "more ready" than Diallo to take on more.

Diallo, as we all know, missed 5 games. He also came in more raw. Finally, in missing those games, he likely got fewer reps on the "a" team at practices since he wasn't likely to play. So it should be no surprise that he's trailing in taking on new responsibility. Early on in "cupcake" games (Loyola, Holy Cross, and Montana) Diallo got decent minutes (16, 18, 10 respectively). In conference play, his previous high was Baylor with 6 minutes. Vs. TCU he played 21.

If I had to guess, I think we're going to see Bragg start taking minutes from Lucas and Mickelson sooner rather than later, and Diallo following shortly thereafter. To me, it doesn't seem like much of a mystery. In the OU and WVU games, HCBS was probably looking at guys who were less likely to make mistakes, and gave those minutes to the experienced guys. Vs. TCU, he could afford to trade errors for gaining experience.

Seems to be that the REALLY big mystery is Lucas who seems to be getting a lot more minutes than it seems he's been earning. Looking at the stats, perhaps it's his rebounding keeping him on the floor. He's tied for 2nd in rebounds per game (with Frank!) which is partially a byproduct of minutes. Nevertheless, look at this:

Lucas: 69 rebounds, 195 minutes = .354 rebounds/minute
Diallo: 36 rebounds, 114 minutes = .315 rebounds/minute
Mickleson: 48 rebounds, 163 minutes = .290 rebounds/minute
Traylor: 58 rebounds, 223 minutes = .260 rebounds/minute
Bragg: 49 rebounds, 190 minutes = .258 rebounds/minute

Maybe that's the answer right there. Not a sexy stat, but somewhat compelling.

One final thought on my "win every game" mentality vs. a "use the season to get guys ready for the post-season". First, we have the luxury to do so. We essentially know that we're going to the tournament every year (barring disaster). If we were Murray State, the "wind every game" philosophy is the only philosophy since the post season is far from automatic. Second, we're still playing for seeding in the tournament. Right now, based on the numbers, we're a #1. Is it worth it to lose a game or two, drop to a 3 or 4, but be better prepared? That's something to consider as well.

Anyway, interesting conversations, and since none of us can read HCBS' mind it's all speculation. We can second-guess him all day, but he knows more about what each player can really do than we do. I'm ok with how he's running the show.

Happy to hear other views on this. Nice to have some discussion happening as well.

"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
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8 years 3 months ago #1948 by konza63
I wouldn't single out Lucas among that group. I'd single out Traylor. What in the world does he give us (save the elusive "energy" that gets thrown around) when he's on the floor with Perry? I would submit "nothing." He's not a rim protector. He has zero offense to draw defenders away from Perry. He's not a super tall guy who rebounds well. He cannot hit a simple bunny to save his soul. He turns the ball over way too much.

I like Jamari's story and welcome him as a Jayhawk, but I honestly think he should only be playing for scrap minutes. That alone would give us 14 minutes to add to Diallo and Bragg. Keep going up from there... And to your broader point, where is it written that we have to proportion the available 50 minutes across all five guys, much less get each close to 10 per game? (My question is as much about future MPG as a goal, as much as what's gone on heretofore)

“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”

1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.

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8 years 3 months ago #1949 by NotOstertag
Regarding the distribution of minutes, I wasn't trying to imply that it needs to be evenly distributed. I was just showing how it was distributed among the players and who's getting "more" and who's getting "less" than if it were distributed equally. Bottom line, there are 2 positions, and the games are 40 minutes long. That's 80 net minutes, and Perry's getting 30, leaving 50 for HCBS to distribute to however many players he sees fit.

As for Jamari, the "energy" thing is what HCBS says, but to my eyes, he's got 5 fouls and he's willing to go be a bruiser if/when needed. None of the rest of the bigs seem to want to play with the same kind of physical aggression that Jamari is willing to bring. If you need somebody to go body to body defending against a guy like Rico Gathers from Baylor, Jamari's a good choice...not necessarily for the whole game, but for long enough to give our less physical guys a break, and put some stress on the endurance of the other guys "Gathers-type" player.

"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot

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8 years 3 months ago - 8 years 3 months ago #1951 by konza63
Understood on the minutes distribution thing--thanks.

RE Jamari, that's a good point. But then when he's in as a bruiser, you lose other aspects (as mentioned before--his weaknesses). Same with all the other guys, I guess, which makes you want to "hybridize" them all into one complete player, LOL.

What scares me is when Self says we have to "play through Perry in the paint." That seems to be what Coach wants the team to do more than anything, when to my mind Perry will never be the consistent go-to guy inside with the trees. He's a tweener and good role-playing scorer (in a balanced attack) who can get inside on occasion. But typically that comes as an "augmentative" part of his game--i.e., when he's doing some damage after starting outside a bit.

I feel like our biggest gap right now is a) a strong scoring threat opposite Perry that will draw some attention and open up the better aspects of Perry's game; and b) a solid rim protector that can make opposing guards pay after they get by our frontline guard defense (which they are still doing this year with some disturbing tendency). With those two aspects in mind, regarding your 50 minutes distribution angle, I'd personally like to see us moving more toward this in the future: Mickelson 15, Diallo 15, Bragg 10, Lucas/Traylor 10. Give Mick and Cheick sufficient playing time at the 5 to try and get in grooves. And if one really separates himself from the other (in the two aspects I mentioned above), then maybe you start adding even more minutes to his game. (I don't know...just a provocative thought)

Agree on the dialogue on having a good discussion here. And I hope my last post didn't sound like I was putting you on the defensive. I had to tap that out quickly and send it, just given workload today.

What do others think on this?

“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”

1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Last Edit: 8 years 3 months ago by konza63.

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8 years 3 months ago #1952 by Jayhawk82
What worries me the most is the lack of development by our younger big men since Danny Manning left KU. I am just wondering, especially with Diallo, how much farther along he would be if Manning was still here? I can point out Joel Embiid;s developemt in his only year at KU.

I also fear how the perceived lack of playing time by high ranked recruits will hurt us in the future.

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8 years 3 months ago #1953 by NotOstertag
Agree 100% on the "play through Perry stuff". Although he threw down a vicious 2-handed dunk vs. TCU that made me wonder where that's been hiding.

Ideally, I'd like Embiid back (wouldn't we all?). I think that of the guys on the list, Diallo is the closest to that in terms of raw talent. Although your minutes distribution proposal makes sense.

Finally regarding the 'hybridization" of the guys, I think the closest we have right now is Coach Hudy who can do some pretty good modifications to the guys. For the true hybridization, I believe that the med school is working on it on a genetic level and 18 years from now Mick/Luc/Dial/Brag/Tray will be suiting up as freshman at KU.

"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot

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8 years 3 months ago #1955 by hoshi
Diallo not only had limited time on the court for the first six games but he also did not, or could not travel with the team to Korea. Basically he lost most of the Fall. He was not running with the first teams but just playing as an opposition player in practice.

My point is that he is only now reaching the point where he has figured out a few things in both Self's offense and defense. If he had had and extra six or so weeks of practice, my guess he would be more ready than what we have seen to date.

Embiid was a freak. Not only in size and skill set but he was one of the quickest learners I have seen as a freshman. He got it and what he did not get, he made up with freakish size, speed and fast twitch muscles.

Our poor performance in my eyes the last two years were totally due to the injury situations to Embiid, Ellis and the the loss of our cneter at the end of last year.

I think NO got this one right.

“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits”. Albert Einstein

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