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seems to me...

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1 month 3 days ago #24468 by LSHawk
Mistake 1: KSU player steals ball
Mistake 2: SDS stands over him
Mistake 3: KSU player charges off bench
Mistake 4: rest of KSU bench follows, attacks SDS
Mistake 5: KU bench clears
Mistake 6: SDS picks up stool
Mistake 7: Weber punts consequences for his players
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1 month 2 days ago #24470 by HawkErrant

LSHawk wrote:
Mistake 1: KSU player steals ball, despite Weber's orders "Don’t press. Don’t foul. Back off."
Mistake 2: SDS stands over him
Mistake 3: KSU players] charge off bench (first 3 in uniform), pushing Silvio to the floor.
Mistake 4: street clothed Love and rest of KSU bench follow, attack SDS as he comes up punching.
Mistake 5: KU bench clears (actually happened in time with 3 and 4 from what I can tell)
Mistake 6: SDS picks up stool
Mistake 7: Weber punts consequences for his players


With the edits I highlighted I agree to all completely, although I would note that Mistake 7 "Punting" is not totally ignoring.
He's just not going to be the Bad Guy, he's going to let that mantle fall on the Big 12. Then he can tell his players how he fought for them while never having to publicly be the Man with the Big Stick.

I would note that IMO such behavior -- to include no penalties for them not following his instructions at the end of the game, which led to the result being dealt with today -- tells his players that he has no spine, and they can ignore him in the future with little concern for the consequences.

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein
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1 month 2 days ago #24474 by Kong
While he hasn't come out and publicly suspended players, we have no idea if he is dishing out any punishments inside his control.

Hey may well be disciplining players just not doing it publicly.

Personally, he needs to call out Love and a couple others, but we have no way of knowing if he hasn't already recommended punishment to his powers that be

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1 month 2 days ago #24476 by CorpusJayhawk
Mistake 1: KSU player steals ball -- Clearly a punk move but not without precedent. If I were Weber, I would have a talk to this kid, have him run the stairs in front of the rest of the team for about 30 minutes and have him issue a private apology to the KU team. We may never hear about any punishment nor should we really. Also if I were Weber, I would limit my public comments to making it clear that is unacceptable, not how we intend to play and that it will be dealt with sternly but privately.

Mistake 2: SDS stands over him -- Some aver this is acceptable given the punk move the other guy just made. I get that but I would mostly disagree. I understand that viewpoint and I understand what may be going on in De Sousa's head at that point, namely on the verge of an amydala hijack. The technical was appropriate and sufficient. If I were Self I would have addressed that with a low key one on one with De Sousa saying don't do that and with the whole team, saying don't do that. While understandable, it is not the right move but certainly not egregious.

Mistake 3: KSU player charges off bench -- Again, I sort of understand where the KSU players were coming from but we are entering seriously non-game transgressions here. This was the first real escalation. Up to that point it was just gaming, right or wrong, and stuff that was part of the game. Case in point, the Monmouth punk who did the same thing to Enaruna. Looking back Enaruna looks even better today for his complete non-reaction. One can only surmise he wanted to punch the kid in the face but casually strolled away. Good on Tristan. Here, De Sousa was not threatening the punk, just staring him down. That may not have been a good thing but it was still in the game. Leaving the bench was the first truly egregious transgression of escalation. At this point, I am surprised that De Sousa's amygdala was not fully hijacked. Looking at the videos throughout the day from various angles, it is clear that De Sousa is not escalating as a sea of purple is clearly posing a potential threat. This needs to be addressed. Leaving the bench benignly ( meaning simply leaving the bench without making threatening moves) may be against the rules but it is not equivalent to leaving the bench and taking an aggressive and threatening posture. KU players left the bench but in a manner I would label as benignly. Technically a violation, but worthy only of a technical or an in-game suspension. The statues are clear on the penalty. But a couple of Wildcat players had far exceeded benign bench leaving. They were clearly threatening De Sousa. Okay, if it stops there the penalties would be limited to technical or in-game suspension. Furthermore, as coach, those players would have some private penance to pay including apologies and stair running.

Mistake 4: rest of KSU bench follows, attacks SDS -- See my comments above about benign bench clearing. That rule exists as a deterrent. Even if you benignly leave the bench, there has to be a penalty as a deterrent for what could happen.

Mistake 5: KU bench clears -- Benign, see comments above. They deserved to be ejected as per the rules. But this was not truly escalation.

Okay, you missed maybe the most important mistake in this entire fracas. If the video I saw is correct, the first actual physical contact was the next mistake and that appeared to be one or two KSU players pushing De Sousa. Honestly, making physical contact of any kind is the Maginot line. Few things will trigger an amygdala hijack like that first physical contact in a tense situation like this. The first physical contact is more egregious than the ensuing since the ensuing is often more likely amygdala related. If indeed the KSU players made the first physical contact knocking De Sousa down, this is significant. If this turns out to be the case, any player initiating contact is a candidate for the harshest penalty. I am not familiar enough with the rules to speculate on what that penalty may be. Blow hards like Vitale have spouted lifetime bans all the way to the other end of the spectrum like Jay Williams or Shannon Sharpe (thanks HE). I have been a handful of fights in my younger days and for anyone who has been in those situations, you know all too well the power of the amygdala. Your pre-frontal cortex is simply chemically not in the equation for those few seconds. If indeed, these KSU players made first contact, I sure hope that is dealt with appropriately. Were I Weber and that was the determination, I would be very clear and contrite. There is no joy in meting out punishment but it is necessary. I would not condemn these young men but I would sure make it clear that the consequences are the best opportunity to learn how to be better in the future. Afterall, that is a large part of the purpose of consequences. I may support my guys personally, but I would make sure, that my support means helping them through consequences to have the best opportunity of learning their lesson.

The next event which was probably a mistake was De Sousa responding to being attacked. If indeed he was pushed to the gorund and came up swinging, that has to be viewed in the context of all that is happening. Was it reasonable self defense? Was it amygdala and thus understandable? Yes, in the ideal world we would all have the aplomb to take a shot and stand there inertly with no response or to simply walk away. That is not how young men are wired and I literally mean wired as in chemical synapses and brain development. Heck, at 45 I was assaulted in my front yard by 12 young men at about midnight (trying to break into my house to fight my teenage son), all about 16 -18 years old. I went outside, turned to my wife to lock the front door and call the police. I then turned to the leader and pushed him as hard as I could knocking him to the ground and dared the rest to make a move. Looking back, I can't believe I did that. I am not an opposing physical speciman by any measure. My point is, that was the amygdala fight or flight and being a father and husband, flight was not an option. I was literally out of my mind for a minute or two. When you are threatened, the rules are set and the situation is somewhat defined in terms of your actions. I would be loathe to punish De Sousa too harshly for defending himself, especially given from the his viewpoint that he was surrounded and outnumbered.

One more you missed. The Love character entering the fray. De Sousa may or may not have been forced into a defensive mode somewhat justifying his responses. Love was purely in offensive mode and the aggressor. This young mans deserves as harsh a punishment and needs to have the opportunity to learn his lesson through consequences as anyone involved.

Mistake 6: SDS picks up stool - Amygdala notwithstanding, this is clearly the iconic meme of this entire episode. That is unfortunate. If indeed he dropped it of his own volition, this was part and parcel of the ensuing events following the initial attack and sort of a no harm no foul. Even if it was knocked out of his hands it is still somewhat of a no harm no foul. But we live in in 2020 when memes are worth 1000 words, nay memes are the truth and reality. That is unfortunate. It was a bad look. It was a terrible look. It was sad and heartbreaking and maddening and frustrating and about 10 other descriptors. But it is not the dominant aspect of this event in reality, only in the meme world which is reality because the media and social media will make sure it is the reality. Only the schools and the Big 12 will have a true picture of reality and that will even be clouded. Picking up the stool to my mind in and of itself, does not radically impact this episode and warrants no special additional punishment. If it is determined that De Sousa is culpable for the instigation and perpetuation that caused this and escalated this, he should get quite harsh and severe consequences. The stool should have little impact on that. By that time, the damage was either done or not.

Mistake 7: Weber punts consequences for his players -- I have little concern at this point to bash on Weber. (and believe me, I am no Weber fan). I am desperately hoping that the PTB in the two schools and the Big 12, get a comprehensive seriatim of events and look at this in a manner that truly shows the world that fairness, and righteousness with the proper amounts of stern adherence to the rules mixed with reasonable mercy and lots of humility and a commitment to eschew public relation positioning in favor of just doing the right thing prevails. I do not hope for harsher punishment for any one side or tit for tat. Just do what is right, make the calls, show that the deepest concern is balanced for helping all these young men learn through consequences while protecting the need for deterrence against future similar events.

As part of my job, I was called on to adjudicate and arbitrate numerous transgressions among employees. In virtually every one of those situations, there were strong advocates of all sides, some reasonable some not, some quite passionate, some quite vocal and much pressure brought to bear on me with threats and accusations and all the usual fare. You have to rise above it all and first, get the facts, all the facts. Understand the context of every action. Have a clear motive to do the right thing for all parties involved and commit to effectively communicating all the above. That is my prayer for this situation. Whatever consequences are meted, I pray they will be for all the right reasons with all the relevant facts, and with the proper intent.

Don't worry about the mules, just load the wagon!!
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1 month 2 days ago - 4 weeks 2 days ago #24479 by HawkErrant
Well said, Corpus.

As an example of what not to say, here is what the publisher of The Manhattan mercury wrote today in his op/ed.

I posted it on facebook (as I could not reply directly to his op/ed) and replied as follows...

Hey, Manhattan Mercury publisher Ned Seaton, you are wrong in your linked OP/ED. Last night's melee at the KSU @ KU game is ALMOST ENTIRELY on KState players. Yes, Silvio De Sousa messed up big time, but THE FACT REMAINS that up to and including SDS' taunting technical the game was just that, another game.

The bush league steal by Gordon with 8 seconds to go and trailing by 20+ points -- after being told by his coach "Don’t press. Don’t foul. Back off." -- actually started the chain of events. Without it, the game ends with De Sousa dribbling out the clock and no melee.

Silvio's recovery and block of Gordon was all hoops. His standing over Gordon, who had fallen to the floor after his shot was blocked, was not smart and against the rules (he got the technical foul) but understandable in the circumstances.

UP TO THAT POINT, if the KSU players keep their cool, NOTHING ELSE HAPPENS. BUT SLOAN and THREE (3) KSU players leave the bench to "come to the aid of Gordon", whose only real danger was the broken ego he had just endured after his bush league play. THAT was Escalation 1.

The wall of KSU bench players and Sloan knock De Sousa down, that was Escalation 2.

Silvio bouncing back up and throwing a punch at KSU's Sloan was Escalation 3.

Injured and street clothed KSU player James Love III coming off the bench attacking Silvio fists flying was Escalation 4.

Silvio falling over, finding the stool in his reach and standing up and raising it over his head before he finally drops it thanks in part to the efforts of your photographer Nick Oatley and KU ASSISTANT COACH JERRANCE HOWARD (not just "somebody else" as you wrote) [HE edit for the RCB: plus who knows how many others yelling at him to drop it] -- was Escalation 5.

That's 5 Escalation points, and 3 of them were created by KSU players, not De Sousa. That's not including the bush league steal by Gordon, contrary to his coach's orders, which actually started the whole chain of events.

AT EVERY STAGE mature action by KSU players defuses last night. Didn't happen.

Silvio screwed up, and he will pay.

But he is far from the only person to blame for last night.

Get your stuff together, sir, and tell it like it was, not like you want it to be.


I would add that mature action by KU players defuses it as well, but as you point out Corpus -- facing a wall of purple, and then getting attacked by someone not in uniform (quick reaction -- who? has it gone all out brawl? defend self!), that ol' debbil amygdala can be very demanding.

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein
Last Edit: 4 weeks 2 days ago by HawkErrant. Reason: to emphasize Silvio dropped the stool of his own accord and note there were other people around SIlvio were yelling at him to drop it
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1 month 2 days ago #24486 by Wheatstate Gal
I find it laughable that with all that’s going on in the world and this country, the Mercury writes an op-Ed on a basketball game.
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1 month 2 days ago #24489 by Bayhawk
Link? :huh:

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1 month 2 days ago - 1 month 2 days ago #24490 by Wheatstate Gal
It's in the post by HE....where he relates his Facebook posting......very first line after “well said, Corpus”

I’m technically inept.....cannot post a link. :-(
Last Edit: 1 month 2 days ago by Wheatstate Gal.
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1 month 2 days ago #24512 by LSHawk
Thanks for the elaboration and analysis. Do you think B12 punishments were fair?
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1 month 2 days ago #24514 by JoJoHawk
In response to WSGal- KC Star did Op-Ed today. Somewhat heavy handed! To quote:

“Then, during the melee that spilled into courtside seats, De Sousa inexplicably picked up a metal stool and held it over his head as if to hit someone “WWE-style,” as ESPN wrote. It’s not inaccurate to say he brandished a weapon. What in heaven’s name was he thinking he might do? Don’t point a gun or a chair at someone if you’re not prepared to use it.”

Well to them I say, if you want to accuse someone of what amounts to at least considering assault with a deadly (as per analogy in final sentence of paragraph) just come out and say it instead of hiding behind a double negative!

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1 month 2 days ago #24515 by Wheatstate Gal
My version of a double negative:

Shaking my head and rolling my eyes.

;-)
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1 month 2 days ago #24516 by HawkErrant

LSHawk wrote: Thanks for the elaboration and analysis. Do you think B12 punishments were fair?


Overall they are acceptable.

I think Antonio Gordon should have received more, since it was just attitude on both sides until he started the violence by pushing Silvio down.

I’m still not convinced from the various videos I’ve seen (on the biggest screen I could use depending on the source) that David actually threw a punch, and in retrospect I think the deciders agree with me. His suspension would surely be more than 2 games if he had. But he was otherwise very aggressively defending Silvio, so I’m okay with his two.

I think Silvio and Love got the same 8 for actually throwing punches, plus 4 more for Silvio for the stool, so I’m good there.

As someone who quit organized basketball because of impulse control issues in my youth (yeah, I was a bad hothead.., and full disclosure, I just wasn't that good), I can empathize with Silvio.

But Silvio could have received so much more for that stool. I believe his past year being the superb representative for himself and KU, combined with the fact that he was defending himself, are what kept him from being bounced completely. Now he has to go forward under very trying conditions, and hopefully he will be up to the task.

I would not be surprised if he chose to go elsewhere for his final year, but from all I’ve seen he is happy at KU, so I don’t see it. Unless Self and the KUAD determine that it is better for him and for KU that he must go — which I don’t think will happen, but I have lost faith in Jeff Long’s decision making ability, so all bets are off — I think he’ll get the chance to work on his public rehabilitation in Lawrence for his senior year.

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein
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1 month 2 days ago #24517 by Kong
for Silvio was so that he would be out beyond the KSU game.

Partially for the taunting, partially for the punches thrown, partially for the chair, but a whole lot to make it so that there isn't stuff happening in Manhattan.

Just my $.02

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1 month 2 days ago #24518 by murphyslaw
I relate to being technically inept, Wheatie.

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1 month 2 days ago #24522 by HawkErrant

Kong wrote: for Silvio was so that he would be out beyond the KSU game.

Partially for the taunting, partially for the punches thrown, partially for the chair, but a whole lot to make it so that there isn't stuff happening in Manhattan.

Just my $.02


True, but they could have made it 11 games instead of 12 if that was their major concern.

Even without Silvio on the bench/floor for the game, my biggest concern is for our guys, players and staff, in Manhattan.
I'm not concerned about the KSU players so much as the KSU fans.
They are beginning to make the Antlers look tame by comparison.
Already too much bad behavior there in the past even before the fight.
I'm really concerned that the incident could jack the bad KSU fan behavior up to 11.

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1 month 1 day ago #24526 by HawkErrant
FWIW, looking at the obverse question "why wasn't Love suspended long enough to ensure he misses the KU game in Manhattan on Feb 29?"...

Love's 8 game suspension starts once he is medically cleared to play again.
Until the suspension is served in its entirety, he cannot travel with the team or be in the bench area on home game days.

So, unless he is medically cleared to play in time for their Feb 1 game @WVU, he will not be playing in Manhattan on Feb 29.

I do not know what his return timetable is supposed to be.

If I was Weber, I would ensure that he is not cleared until the game following the 2nd WVU game, at home against Baylor. That way he cannot play against KU.

Why throw a live grenade into a tinderbox?
(Reasonable answer is to blow up the tinderbox...)

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein
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1 month 20 hours ago - 1 month 20 hours ago #24558 by HawkErrant
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Comments from an attendee sitting very close to the KSU bench, making observations that were new info for me. Interesting his comment on DaJuan Gordon’s actions long before the steal, and Weber’s instructions, or lack thereof, to his players in the closing minutes.

pigskinhawk wrote: I disagree. The steal and taunting was the last straw, but this all started with D. Gordon around the 2:00 mark of the game. He was jawing at people after the tie up and it continued when Jankovich went to the line. Gordon "bumped into" Teahen and started jawing at him. Teahan gave him a little nudge back and basically laughed at him. In addition, some of the national media (but no one local) have commented on this. Weber claims he was instructing his players to back off. He was not. We sit very close to visiting bench and Weber was sitting there with his hands in his lap as they were pressing our walk-ons. People in our section were starting to yell at Weber about it. Honestly, this crap started with about 2 minutes left in the game and could have been avoided by KSU coaching staff. That should be a part of this story.


Anna and I combed over the last 2 minutes, slo-moing from Sloan starting to rush in thru to the end. The camera was not on Weber during much of that period, so we couldn’t see him talking to his players.

What we did see was him watching D. Gordon’s steal and shot attempt, and turning away with body language expressing obvious disgust at the failure to score and trying to hurry toward Self to shake hands and split. No apparent thought to it being a volatile situation.

We also saw the KSU bench suits standing there motionless as their charges charged at Silvio, finally waking up and *slowly* walking toward the mess created by their failure to do their jobs. And they were pretty inept once they hit the mass of bodies, though they get credit for finally trying.

To his credit there is one KState staffer (not from the bench, but had a KSU clipboard in his hand) that was at the side of Love and Silvio, but his focus on calming Silvio was for naught as Love launched right past him. He is clearly someone our guys know, as moments later he is talking down some of our guys a few feet away from the mound of humanity (including Self, Roberts, Howard, Case and Brechard) focused on keeping Silvio and Dave constrained. Kudos to him!


Weber eventually got there and with help struggled two of his guys trying to get in to the mass out of there. Otherwise even more inept than his staff in handling the situation.

In closing, check out this still from the TV feed. Note the aforementioned KSU stalwart helping Self, Case, Roberts, Howard and Brechard (can see the back of his head just beyond Self) get control of the situation.


“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein
Last Edit: 1 month 20 hours ago by HawkErrant. Reason: fixed pic links
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4 weeks 1 day ago #24607 by HawkErrant
The aforementioned KSU staffer who I did not know was KState’s all-time leading shot blocker and now the program’s Graduate Student Manager Jordan Henriquez-Roberts. Again, kudos and thank you, good sir!

www.kstatesports.com/sports/mens-basketb...nriquez-roberts/1471

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein

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