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Rock Chalk Talk: Basketball
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage
And so it begins....Silvio benched...
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7 years 1 week ago #19481
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12...rticle220538450.html
Credit Self and KU for exercising an abundance of caution, but this might be the beginning of the end for the kid. Hope I'm wrong.
Credit Self and KU for exercising an abundance of caution, but this might be the beginning of the end for the kid. Hope I'm wrong.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
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7 years 1 week ago #19482
by AZhawk87
Honest question - not sour grapes. How does Silvio get benched and likely become ineligible but Zion Williamson gets to play at Duke when there was testimony that his dad demanded cash, a job and a house for his son's commitment. Simply asking is a violation as I understand it. And it's naive to believe Nike didn't meet at least one of those demands.
It's why I still think this whole mess gets swept under the carpet and no coach or school will get sanctions of any significant nature. The kids will get punished/sacrificed, the parents/guardians will keep their cash, and the rich coaches, schools and NCAA will just move on.
It's why I still think this whole mess gets swept under the carpet and no coach or school will get sanctions of any significant nature. The kids will get punished/sacrificed, the parents/guardians will keep their cash, and the rich coaches, schools and NCAA will just move on.
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7 years 1 week ago #19483
by Bayhawk
The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
This board -- a microcosm of Jayhawk Nation -- has been uncharacteristically quiet, especially when one considers we are less than a day away from the first (exhibition) game. My house and person is adorned with Jayhawk bball accoutrement. Yet I remain subdued. This mess has tainted what we want to think and feel about our beloved alma matter.[Editorial comment: Is this how Catholics feel right now?]
Who knows how all this will end. AZhawk has been forthright in what seems like an objective appraisal of the entire situation. His honest observations, painful for us at times, seems realistic and, I can only hope, probable. Still, the "Everybody does it" defense does not sit well with many of us I'm sure.
I beg you all this my esteemed Rock Chalk faithful, let's all rally together in our crimson and blue, adorn our homes, pets, children, and selves with all our Jayhawk paraphernalia, and hold our heads high as we start this new season. I don't know when the other shoe will drop or what will become of the entire fiasco, but I do know it will not diminish my love for KU hoops, our noble alma matter, or all of you.
Rock Chalk Jayhawk, Go KU!!!!
Who knows how all this will end. AZhawk has been forthright in what seems like an objective appraisal of the entire situation. His honest observations, painful for us at times, seems realistic and, I can only hope, probable. Still, the "Everybody does it" defense does not sit well with many of us I'm sure.
I beg you all this my esteemed Rock Chalk faithful, let's all rally together in our crimson and blue, adorn our homes, pets, children, and selves with all our Jayhawk paraphernalia, and hold our heads high as we start this new season. I don't know when the other shoe will drop or what will become of the entire fiasco, but I do know it will not diminish my love for KU hoops, our noble alma matter, or all of you.
Rock Chalk Jayhawk, Go KU!!!!
The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
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7 years 1 week ago - 7 years 1 week ago #19485
by Illhawk
I was in Lawrence this past weekend. Seems like the enthusiasm may have been curbed a bit by the unpleasant things that have came to light and the uncertainty as to possible repercussions.
A longer term fan than me ( I started school in 1983) who had season tickets for years seems to think we should enjoy this season since it might be a while before we have another array of this much talent.
Of course, that would apply sans any Adidas trial or NCAA concerns?
He is older an wiser so I will follow his lead and try to take every game as an experience outside of any long term context.
That said, if all we have to do to avoid NCAA issues is sit one player I would do that deal before lunch is over today.
A longer term fan than me ( I started school in 1983) who had season tickets for years seems to think we should enjoy this season since it might be a while before we have another array of this much talent.
Of course, that would apply sans any Adidas trial or NCAA concerns?
He is older an wiser so I will follow his lead and try to take every game as an experience outside of any long term context.
That said, if all we have to do to avoid NCAA issues is sit one player I would do that deal before lunch is over today.
Last Edit: 7 years 1 week ago by Illhawk. Reason: typos
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7 years 1 week ago #19486
by AZhawk87
I have come to a place of peace on all of this.
I accept what is, and while it's never an ethical position to take, the "everyone's doing it" is more about the industry being broken than a particular coach. I have hope that the industry cleans itself up, without taking itself or a particular school down.
The worst is past, there should be no more testimony beyond what we've heard, and we can move on. I'm very excited for the season, and I'll accept whatever comes and root the team on. Let the adorning of KU gear begin !!
I accept what is, and while it's never an ethical position to take, the "everyone's doing it" is more about the industry being broken than a particular coach. I have hope that the industry cleans itself up, without taking itself or a particular school down.
The worst is past, there should be no more testimony beyond what we've heard, and we can move on. I'm very excited for the season, and I'll accept whatever comes and root the team on. Let the adorning of KU gear begin !!
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7 years 1 week ago #19487
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
I'm excited for the season to begin. I like our chances against Emporia State even if Silvio doesn't play. 
This has taken an toll and this is where I think the truth lies and how I'm "making peace" with it. As we all know, the AAU circuit and shoe company involvement is about as shady as anything in the world. I think Self, Izzo, Calipari, K, and everyone else in coaching knows it's shady. I believe that the "clean" guys have an attitude of keeping them and themselves as far away from the filth as possible, and work with their compliance departments to keep the stink off of themselves and their schools. Nevertheless, if an Adidas or Nike rep makes his own back-door play to guide a kid somewhere, and the school is isolated from it, then it's going to happen. I also blame the kids and their families because they're being driven by greed and I wish they weren't tempted to behave that way (although I guess I can't blame them).
I do think there's a line somewhere, and while it might have been "we don't do that kind of thing at KU" at one point in my life, it's now evolved to "we set limits on that sort of thing to protect the program's reputation." I don't like it, but I think it's reality. So while I don't think Self is directing that kind of thing, I think if it happens and he doesn't know about it, he's willing to let it go. I think the handling of the Cliff Alexander thing, the Preston thing and now Silvio show that we're doing "the best we can" in an inherently corrupt system.
I do think Calipari and some others have crossed the line. As far as I know, Self isn't hiring hookers for recruits, for example.
This isn't an "everybody else is doing it" excuse, but I have accepted the reality of the situation. Eliminating the OAD, I think, can go a long way to fixing this.
As for Zion Williamson, I'm wondering if the newpaper reporters on Tobacco Road are asleep at the wheel. How hard would it be to compare the Williamson recruiting timeline and then determine whether Zion's dad changed jobs or suddenly moved to better digs during that period? I'm tempted to go on LinkedIn and look for myself.
Going forward, I'm looking forward to watching this team play. I have some new apparel, the Jayhawk flag is ready to go, and the gameday Jayhawk pint glasses are ready to serve me refreshing beverages. I can't do anything to control what the NCAA does with what they're learning, but benching Silvio was the right call, and I'm ready to watch these guys grab a 15th ring and make a deep run 5 months from now.
This has taken an toll and this is where I think the truth lies and how I'm "making peace" with it. As we all know, the AAU circuit and shoe company involvement is about as shady as anything in the world. I think Self, Izzo, Calipari, K, and everyone else in coaching knows it's shady. I believe that the "clean" guys have an attitude of keeping them and themselves as far away from the filth as possible, and work with their compliance departments to keep the stink off of themselves and their schools. Nevertheless, if an Adidas or Nike rep makes his own back-door play to guide a kid somewhere, and the school is isolated from it, then it's going to happen. I also blame the kids and their families because they're being driven by greed and I wish they weren't tempted to behave that way (although I guess I can't blame them).
I do think there's a line somewhere, and while it might have been "we don't do that kind of thing at KU" at one point in my life, it's now evolved to "we set limits on that sort of thing to protect the program's reputation." I don't like it, but I think it's reality. So while I don't think Self is directing that kind of thing, I think if it happens and he doesn't know about it, he's willing to let it go. I think the handling of the Cliff Alexander thing, the Preston thing and now Silvio show that we're doing "the best we can" in an inherently corrupt system.
I do think Calipari and some others have crossed the line. As far as I know, Self isn't hiring hookers for recruits, for example.
This isn't an "everybody else is doing it" excuse, but I have accepted the reality of the situation. Eliminating the OAD, I think, can go a long way to fixing this.
As for Zion Williamson, I'm wondering if the newpaper reporters on Tobacco Road are asleep at the wheel. How hard would it be to compare the Williamson recruiting timeline and then determine whether Zion's dad changed jobs or suddenly moved to better digs during that period? I'm tempted to go on LinkedIn and look for myself.
Going forward, I'm looking forward to watching this team play. I have some new apparel, the Jayhawk flag is ready to go, and the gameday Jayhawk pint glasses are ready to serve me refreshing beverages. I can't do anything to control what the NCAA does with what they're learning, but benching Silvio was the right call, and I'm ready to watch these guys grab a 15th ring and make a deep run 5 months from now.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
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7 years 1 week ago #19488
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
...but wait, there's more....
Something occurred to me that I think (at least for me) is the reason WHY this whole situation is such a bummer. It occurs to me because my daughter is a freshman at UMass (please hold your Calipari jokes) and is in the marching band there. We visited and saw her perform last week.
Right now, she's experiencing the unbridled joy of being part of a big fun thing at college. Nobody is being paid to play in the band, no trumpet player was given a car to sign up. These kids are doing this "thing" because it's fun and they love to do it. They have a bunch of stupid/fun traditions like anything else in college...chants, songs, gestures, etc that are unique to the UMass band that they all know and fully embrace.
This is absolutely no different than what we all experienced going to KU games as students. Reading the UDK when they announce the visitor's roster, shredding that same UDK into confetti to throw when they announced KU's roster, the Rockchalk chant, the school song, trying to distract opposing free throw shooters, while waiting in absolute silence waiting for our shooters to make their free throws so we could do the "whoosh" double-handed arm drop when it goes in, and waiving the wheat when an opposing player commits his 5th foul. When I was 18 and made the trek down from McCollum hall in the cold to go watch a game, I was completely carefree and excited to be part of a big fun circus. Going to games and being part of the that community was a great, fun and exciting thing (and when they won it all in '88 it took on a whole new level).
So here I am 28 years after I graduated and the world is a little more complicated. Mortgage payments, tuition payments, career, health, politics, blah blah blah....there's a lot more on my mind than there was when I was 18 and heading to the Phog. Sadly, the NCAA/Adidas issue has cast a shadow over things.
Nevertheless, I have a feeling that there's going to be a few 18 year old kids walking into AFH tomorrow night for a sold-out exhibition game and experiencing a KU game for the first time tomorrow (they'll be the ones struggling to figure out how to clap to the fight song). They haven't been beaten up by life much yet, they're not jaded, and they're going to scream their lungs out even though it's just Emporia State.
Seeing my daughter experience the same kind of reckless goofiness and exuberance has reminded me of what's really important with this whole thing, and is something I'll try to keep in mind as I watch KU this year. Tune out the distractions. Enjoy this team, and quietly hope that the big money people don't rob future generations of freshmen from having the same experience.
Sorry for the double post, but I just got a text from my daughter and it kicked a few memories loose in my own brain.
Something occurred to me that I think (at least for me) is the reason WHY this whole situation is such a bummer. It occurs to me because my daughter is a freshman at UMass (please hold your Calipari jokes) and is in the marching band there. We visited and saw her perform last week.
Right now, she's experiencing the unbridled joy of being part of a big fun thing at college. Nobody is being paid to play in the band, no trumpet player was given a car to sign up. These kids are doing this "thing" because it's fun and they love to do it. They have a bunch of stupid/fun traditions like anything else in college...chants, songs, gestures, etc that are unique to the UMass band that they all know and fully embrace.
This is absolutely no different than what we all experienced going to KU games as students. Reading the UDK when they announce the visitor's roster, shredding that same UDK into confetti to throw when they announced KU's roster, the Rockchalk chant, the school song, trying to distract opposing free throw shooters, while waiting in absolute silence waiting for our shooters to make their free throws so we could do the "whoosh" double-handed arm drop when it goes in, and waiving the wheat when an opposing player commits his 5th foul. When I was 18 and made the trek down from McCollum hall in the cold to go watch a game, I was completely carefree and excited to be part of a big fun circus. Going to games and being part of the that community was a great, fun and exciting thing (and when they won it all in '88 it took on a whole new level).
So here I am 28 years after I graduated and the world is a little more complicated. Mortgage payments, tuition payments, career, health, politics, blah blah blah....there's a lot more on my mind than there was when I was 18 and heading to the Phog. Sadly, the NCAA/Adidas issue has cast a shadow over things.
Nevertheless, I have a feeling that there's going to be a few 18 year old kids walking into AFH tomorrow night for a sold-out exhibition game and experiencing a KU game for the first time tomorrow (they'll be the ones struggling to figure out how to clap to the fight song). They haven't been beaten up by life much yet, they're not jaded, and they're going to scream their lungs out even though it's just Emporia State.
Seeing my daughter experience the same kind of reckless goofiness and exuberance has reminded me of what's really important with this whole thing, and is something I'll try to keep in mind as I watch KU this year. Tune out the distractions. Enjoy this team, and quietly hope that the big money people don't rob future generations of freshmen from having the same experience.
Sorry for the double post, but I just got a text from my daughter and it kicked a few memories loose in my own brain.
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
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7 years 1 week ago #19489
by bklynhawk
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7 years 1 week ago - 7 years 1 week ago #19490
by HawkErrant
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Anyone who really thought Self was *not* going to bench Silvio for at least a part of the noncon season while KU hashed things out with the NCAA is wearing even C&Ber glasses than I do, and that is saying a LOT!
BUT PEOPLE! PEOPLE! People, the MOST important and HUGE FOR KU news of the day is that the jury found all 3 defendants guilty!
GUILTY!
Such a verdict tells the NCAA that the jury bought the prosecution's case that KU and certain other schools were VICTIMS in this, which is going to make it very difficult for the NCAA to do anything against KU in general unless the NCAA wants to go after the $60K Maryland money -- and IMO the NCAA really wants to avoid opening that can of worms. Take away the good faith appearances from a school that according to the prosecution and the jury was a potential victim (KU will be a real one if the NCAA does that) and NOT go after Duke (Williamson) and Maryland and Arizona? No, I just can't see the spineless bureaucrats damaging their cash flow like that *and* risking their own court case(s) based upon hearsay.
Again IMO the only real risk for Silvio is the $2500 which Gassnola admitted he personally paid TO SILVIO'S GUARDIAN (so not hearsay, and NOT TO SILVIO) to cover the costs of the online courses Silvio took to graduate early. And given that all the info we have to date that neither Silvio nor his family knew about ANY of these moneys, I think it stinks that Silvio be hung out for X games for that. After all, Falmagne is supposed to be Silvio's GUARDIAN, and paying for such courses would not be an unreasonable expectation, and allowed by the NCAA. It's the source of the money -- which Silvio insists he didn't know about -- that's the issue here. And why did the guardian Falmagne need $2500 if he had $60K from Maryland (hearsay, Gassnola had no evidence such a payment ever took place, and Falmagne never testified... why didn't the defense call Falmagne as a hostile witness?).}
In the past when players have received minor inappropriate benefits they have had to sit out games and pay the value of those benefits back. If the NCAA insists on that but tells KU they are not pursuing any other issues, I think KU would take that in a heartbeat.
And I fully expect that will be all that happens with Silvio. He will sit out X games, and then he will be suited up and playing (his *punishment* being retroactively taken from the games KU will have already had him sit) in time for conference competition.
Here's to hoping I'm right (after all, this is the NCAA we're talking about, and they've done really stupid crap in the past)!
Hang in there, my fellow Jayhawks fans!
Hang in there!
BUT PEOPLE! PEOPLE! People, the MOST important and HUGE FOR KU news of the day is that the jury found all 3 defendants guilty!
GUILTY!
Such a verdict tells the NCAA that the jury bought the prosecution's case that KU and certain other schools were VICTIMS in this, which is going to make it very difficult for the NCAA to do anything against KU in general unless the NCAA wants to go after the $60K Maryland money -- and IMO the NCAA really wants to avoid opening that can of worms. Take away the good faith appearances from a school that according to the prosecution and the jury was a potential victim (KU will be a real one if the NCAA does that) and NOT go after Duke (Williamson) and Maryland and Arizona? No, I just can't see the spineless bureaucrats damaging their cash flow like that *and* risking their own court case(s) based upon hearsay.
Again IMO the only real risk for Silvio is the $2500 which Gassnola admitted he personally paid TO SILVIO'S GUARDIAN (so not hearsay, and NOT TO SILVIO) to cover the costs of the online courses Silvio took to graduate early. And given that all the info we have to date that neither Silvio nor his family knew about ANY of these moneys, I think it stinks that Silvio be hung out for X games for that. After all, Falmagne is supposed to be Silvio's GUARDIAN, and paying for such courses would not be an unreasonable expectation, and allowed by the NCAA. It's the source of the money -- which Silvio insists he didn't know about -- that's the issue here. And why did the guardian Falmagne need $2500 if he had $60K from Maryland (hearsay, Gassnola had no evidence such a payment ever took place, and Falmagne never testified... why didn't the defense call Falmagne as a hostile witness?).}
In the past when players have received minor inappropriate benefits they have had to sit out games and pay the value of those benefits back. If the NCAA insists on that but tells KU they are not pursuing any other issues, I think KU would take that in a heartbeat.
And I fully expect that will be all that happens with Silvio. He will sit out X games, and then he will be suited up and playing (his *punishment* being retroactively taken from the games KU will have already had him sit) in time for conference competition.
Here's to hoping I'm right (after all, this is the NCAA we're talking about, and they've done really stupid crap in the past)!
Hang in there, my fellow Jayhawks fans!
Hang in there!
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"
Last Edit: 7 years 1 week ago by HawkErrant.
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7 years 1 week ago #19491
by Bayhawk
The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
May it be so,
--RC
--RC
The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
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7 years 1 week ago #19494
by NotOstertag
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
Great points, HE. I agree that the guilty charge helps a whole lot. The defendants were found guilty of fraud, and as a victim of that fraud the prosecution proved (beyond a reasonable doubt) that it happened and that it happened without the schools' knowledge. As a victim of this fraud, the court found that KU didn't direct any of this, nor was their proof that KU had any knowledge of what was happening. With the exception of Silvio having to deal with his situation as an individual, I think we're in the clear. Remember, the NCAA cleared Silvio to play before he came on board last year and KU vetted him as well. An EXTREMELY strong case can be made that neither KU nor the NCAA should be held responsible for this, and KU (once again) is acting with an abundance of caution by benching Silvio for now.
This brings up an interesting 2nd question. If this were a normal case and Adidas (or it's employees) committed fraud that left another party as a "victim", the "victim" could sue Adidas in civil court for any damages that it suffered as a result of the fraud. So right away, KU could explore suing Adidas, but it's HIGHLY unlikely that it would because Adidas first line of defense would be to attempt to throw KU under the bus by trying to prove that KU knew what was going on all along. I don't think either KU nor Adidas want to go down that road. But, and this is where it gets interesting, if KU were to get hammered by the NCAA, there could be a huge financial hit to the university. If that happened, it raises the possibility of a civil suit from "never" to "probably never".
This brings up an interesting 2nd question. If this were a normal case and Adidas (or it's employees) committed fraud that left another party as a "victim", the "victim" could sue Adidas in civil court for any damages that it suffered as a result of the fraud. So right away, KU could explore suing Adidas, but it's HIGHLY unlikely that it would because Adidas first line of defense would be to attempt to throw KU under the bus by trying to prove that KU knew what was going on all along. I don't think either KU nor Adidas want to go down that road. But, and this is where it gets interesting, if KU were to get hammered by the NCAA, there could be a huge financial hit to the university. If that happened, it raises the possibility of a civil suit from "never" to "probably never".
"When I was a freshman, I remember Coach Naismith telling us how important it was to play good defense." - Mitch Lightfoot
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7 years 1 week ago - 7 years 1 week ago #19496
by jaythawk1
Education Is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence~Robert Frost
Thank you for your thoughts in both your posts!
Rock Chalk JayHawk! Go KU!
Rock Chalk JayHawk! Go KU!
Education Is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence~Robert Frost
Last Edit: 7 years 1 week ago by jaythawk1.
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