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Post mortem

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8 years 3 months ago #13108 by LSHawk
I for one can't just say, oh well, there's always next year. I'd be interested in thoughts about what led to yet another early exit:
1) no Azabuike?
2) HCBS is cursed?
3) B12 is overrated?
4) off court distractions?
5) not our time?
6) over reliance on 3's?
7) under emphasis of defense?
8) fighting for consecutive conference champs took too much out of us?
9) other?

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8 years 3 months ago - 8 years 3 months ago #13109 by Governors
I personally don't believe 1=8 had any impact yesterday.

#9 - Other......Oregon shot lights out and the Hawks didn't even come close to their usual shooting percentage. Even with that, they were able to close it to 6 late in the 2nd half. They were just cold last night, well actually freezing.

JMHO
Last Edit: 8 years 3 months ago by Governors.
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8 years 3 months ago #13110 by LSHawk
Mind boggling how everyone was cold; nobody compensated, although Frank and Svi tried. Did we get nervous/tight when JJ got in early foul trouble? Was Oregon just good at disrupting our rhythm or getting hands in our faces? Did we "spend" all our makes in the first 3 games?

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8 years 3 months ago #13111 by Wheatstate Gal
I tend to agree with Guv.

I worried that we had been sooooo on for sooooo long, that we would re-set and have to waller/rassle in the mud. And I hoped we wouldn't get mired.

I think we all knew Oregon is good and we'd need to hit on all cylinders....playing a couple of guys against 5 who are smokin'.....

Dang!!! rats.

Still no sunshine in CA.....

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8 years 3 months ago #13113 by LSHawk
"The opponent was just the better team tonight" just doesn't console me this year. What does HCBS mean by, "we just couldn't get out of our own way,"? How do we go in 48 hours from firing on ALL cylinders to NONE?

I know, no use crying over spilled milk, but more than ever, i want answers. Sure, we're beyond great during the season (unless the B12 is overrated), but a dud in post season. Maybe there's too much emphasis on final 4's and NCs, but these are stats by which we are falling behind the other blue bloods.

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8 years 3 months ago #13115 by LSHawk

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8 years 3 months ago #13122 by hairyhawk
I have no idea why KU team have quite often stunk if the elite eight game. It has happened a lot and I would agree with the author of the article that other ones have been worse. The VCU loss IMHO is still the one that I have the hardest time with. That team was a good 3 point shooting team and to go 2 for 21 when most of them were open looks was tough to believe. I think with this game I give a lot of credit to Oregon as they played very well. As I said in a couple other threads IMHO the blow out of Purdue was really a curse. We got too up for that game and did not have enough in the tank to respond in this one.

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8 years 3 months ago #13124 by LSHawk
Yeah, too bad they didn't save 20 or so points for Oregon...

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8 years 3 months ago #13127 by LSHawk
Florida goes down... Now if the proverbial meteor could take out UNC and UK...

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8 years 3 months ago #13135 by DrJHawker
I would never say HCBS is cursed in the tournament. Yet, you have to wonder what's up with with an all-time 2-7 record in the Elite 8. He has almost as many losses in the Elite 8 as he has losses in Allen Field House. There isn't a coach in the nation I'd rather be counting on to win the conference title, but when it comes to the Elite 8, maybe we need a designated replacement to get us over that hump. ;-) Hopefully next year the tide will begin to turn.

The other item on your list that strikes me is Azabuike. On a positive note, after Azabuike was out, Landen seemed to step up. Yet, I think a healthy, seasoned Azabuike in the middle would have changed things last night. For me, the Azabuike season ending injury was #1 on the list. Way worse than the off-court youthful indiscretions.

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8 years 3 months ago #13136 by JRhawk
I agree about Azu - he may not become an offensive machine, but doubt Bell would have gotten 13 rebounds if he was playing.

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8 years 3 months ago #13141 by Senex68
As I stated here last night, we choked. The question is not, therefore, why we lost, but rather, why we choked. And the answer is obvious to me, and is an unpleasant reality that most of us already know, but are hesitant to admit publicly. And here it is.

Bill Self choked. He choked every throat of every player on this team, and the only one able to push away his hands and play to ability was Frank Mason. By announcing to the world that the Elite Eight is the most difficult game to win in the tournament he did 3 things to damage his team's ability to play to their ability. First, he created a sense of doubt in their minds about their ability to win. Second, he damaged the rather fragile egos of several of the team members, creating doubt in their minds, and negatively impacting their ability to deal with the obvious pressure of the game. Third, he gave the confident players 'extra' incentive to play even harder than normal, which forced them to play out of their comfort zone, which we generally call 'playing tight.' The result was clear. Our best player, and the one player capable of creating and maintaining his own motivation, and playing to his ability, was Frank Mason. Our next best players, Josh Jackson and Devonte Graham, played tight and simply couldn't get out of their own ways for most of the game. They never played with confidence and fluidity, and we all saw the result. And our other players, one of whom never got off the bench, simply lacked the confidence they needed to play 'normally,' and we saw the result.

I simply cannot fathom why Self had to shout out to the world how insecure HE was about the game. It just made no sense, and the almost guaranteed that the team would play tight, and fail to move on. For the entire game we looked almost lost, except when Frank took it upon himself to carry the team on his back. Why he didn't continue to carry the team during the 2nd half is probably a result of fatigue and Self's extremely odd coaching. Or perhaps Self's total lack of coaching. Or Self's bizarre strategy. But whatever the reason or reasons why Frank couldn't or wouldn't continue to play HIS game, Bill Self lost this one for KU. Right now he needs to reevaluate how he approaches these Elite 8 games, or he will never win one for us.

"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”

Glenn Reynolds
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8 years 3 months ago #13142 by LSHawk
Completely agree...

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8 years 3 months ago #13149 by HawkErrant
Really want to disagree with you, Peter.
Can't and won't even try.

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"

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8 years 3 months ago - 8 years 3 months ago #13150 by konza63
Self clearly has E-8 issues; that's undeniable. Is it the quick turnaround and inadequate game planning? Lack of elite assistant coaches doing the scouting reports? Any of a dozen other questions we could all list?

I don't know.

What I do know is that, in Self's defense, he didn't get our most talented and athletic player taken completely out of the game (and flow) just a few minutes after the opening tip. He didn't ask to have to play Svi and Vick at the same time as a rarely used lineup that was required for a major chunk of the first half due to those fouls. He didn't control the fact that Oregon was hitting 3s in the opening half that bounced off the rim several feet up and then back through the net--or banked off the glass into the rim right before the buzzer sounded. He didn't personally chuck up open-look 3 after open-look 3 without any success whatsoever (DG, here's looking at you). He didn't cause our players to clang into one another on multiple occasions, causing sure rebounds to go back to Oregon to give their possessions new life.

Notwithstanding things he DID actually have some control over and might have changed, the above aspects were bonecrushing in their effect on the game--and just as clearly as any other factor (including the Self tightness theory) were the difference between a loss and a win.

Players have to play. And aside from Frank and Svi last night, none of ours got it done. Looking beyond Graham and Jackson, Landon alone missed enough close-in bunnies to alter the outcome. There are just so many variables in the mix...

Lastly, even if there's something to the notion that Self has an E-8 monkey on his back, which seems clear, here's the rub: You can't have an Elite 8 problem if your program isn't consistently good enough to provide you with the opportunity to HAVE that problem in the first place. In other words, KU under Self has been a model of elite winning consistency, as evidenced by the fact that we now own the record for most consecutive NCAA tourney appearances. That is something to be treasured and admired, and I'd never want to convey the impression (or buy into the concept) that KU should trade Self for someone who will bring far less winning consistency yet once in a blue moon get us a title.

I want Bill Self to continue to be our coach, for he is an elite winner and a good program/university steward. But I ALSO want him to take a seriously objective look in the mirror and make some corrections (staff, planning, hypnotist, psychologist, motivational specialist, or SOMETHING!) to help get over this freaking speed bump that prevents KU from achieving elite level POST-SEASON success that is commensurate with its regular season success and historical bloodline. The program deserves that level of success. The players deserve it. And HE himself deserves it, for all that he consistently puts into his trade.

Hope this makes sense. Typing on a phone, so excuse if not, or if typos...

“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”

1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Last Edit: 8 years 3 months ago by konza63.
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8 years 3 months ago #13154 by HawkErrant
It all makes sense, Konza.

But, while we cannot absolutely know for sure, I think many would agree with me that the coaching specific things that were done -- like before the game talking about how the E8 game is actually the toughest game to win and otherwise unwittingly displaying fear in front of his troops) -- or weren't done (more use of the devastating press displayed earlier in the year??) -- hurt, and hurt badly. And that Larry* or Roy would have handled things differently -- so much so that this conversation would probably not be happening. Or at the very least we would have been competitive in losing.

Like you, this is NOT to say we want someone else.
It IS to say that we want our guy to do better in the postseason!
I like your potential courses of action, none of which are mutually exclusive.
And I think I can safely say that we ALL share your hopes!

ROCK CHALK!

*Did you hear Reggie Miller during the game talking about how Larry Brown was simply the best in-game Xs and Os coach he has ever seen? Man, I wish Larry would sit down with Bill and go over the video of the bad games this year to talk about what Bill was thinking and why he did what he did. I'd bet Bill would benefit. Hey, do you think Larry would consider being an assistant coach as his retirement job? :woohoo:

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain "Innocents Abroad"

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8 years 3 months ago - 8 years 3 months ago #13155 by konza63
I would LOVE for Larry to come on the staff as an advisor...or, barring that, to review and share guidance on Self's performance.

“With kindest regards to Dr. Forrest C. Allen, the father of basketball coaching, from the father of the game.”

1936 inscription on the portrait of Dr. Naismith, displayed above Phog Allen's office desk at KU.
Last Edit: 8 years 3 months ago by konza63.

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8 years 3 months ago #13160 by Senex68
As I have stated twice now, we choked. Nobody can contest that reality. And as I've said, there must be a reason. A coach does not lose 8 out of 10 times at one particular time of the season for no reason. You can applaud Bill Self for his successes, but don't excuse his failures because he has tremendous success most of the time. Mediocre coaches get their guys to play better in the NCAA than they do in the regular season. Self's teams, almost without exception, play tight in the NCAAs, and we lose games we normally would have won. Given what we've seen from this team in particular over the course of this season, the Oregon game was truly extraordinary, and reflects the coaching more than the talent. Self screwed up and if he doesn't figure out how to fix his problem with the Elite Eight, it will be a long, sad slog for us fans over the next 10 years plus.

"When you have a ruling class that doesn’t believe in — or even much like — the fundamental values of the nations it rules, things tend to work out poorly.”

Glenn Reynolds

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8 years 3 months ago #13161 by AZhawk87
I think we over performed the entire season, and this was one of Self's best coaching jobs yet. Frankly, our number one issue was we were undermanned, and we got exposed by the most athletic team we've played that matched up at every position with us, and they played great.

If not for a consensus POY season from Mason, we would have had eight losses, at least.

We thought we would have Bragg playing at an NBA draft ready level and AZ becoming a force by the end of the season. We ended up with an A+ effort from Lucas all season, which unfortunately is a B- compared to D-1 starting centers. We got a D at best from Bragg, and nothing from AZ. We played Oregon with Coleby as our first sub, and he played about 30 minutes the entire season. That is the definition of "polar opposite" from what we expected to see this season.

Svi and Graham are very good, and I really enjoy them. But Svi airballs and clanks as many as he makes, and he plays 6-2 instead of 6-8, and is a liability on defense. Graham is one of the best streaky shooters and tough defenders, but has no mid range or rim game. Neither are elite athletes, and they were overwhelmed by the Oregon athletes.

JJ was the best, and most enjoyable, OAD we've ever had. But relying on a freshman in March generally leads to disappointment. They just haven't played on a stage that big. It showed in spades against the Ducks.

Overall, with the off court stuff thrown in, I think we vastly exceeded our potential. Go back to December and if we knew even some of the above issues, we would be pleased with having made it to the E8.

And finally, I do think the B-12 is over rated. At home each team is tough, but Iowa State, Baylor, etc. rarely dominate in the tourney, and I don't think anyone fears them. WVU wins a few games with their press, but are always exposed by a better team eventually. I think KU's dominance of the conference has destroyed other team's confidence to a point where the conference under performs in the tourney. A more wide open conference where three or four teams vie for the title would bring the overall level up by March.

I came away this season with two new all time favorites - Lucas and Mason - and enjoyed the season much more than the past few. Can't wait for next season to start.

On to football !! When was the last time any of us could say that with a straight face??

Rock Chalk.
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8 years 3 months ago #13162 by Riverhawk
Well said AZ! Was just about to write what you did, but you covered the bases very well and better than I would have. The word "choke" has been used unfairly and too often lately. While I share the frustration and disappointment of everyone here, this team got more out of its potential (given the Dok and Bragg developments) than any group since 2012 imo.
Ran into a hot and very talented team (Bell was terrific!) and Jackson's foul trouble had a big impact.
Having said all that, I am not trying to ignore Self's problems in the tournament. They exist and are real. But this team deserves kudos for a heckuva run despite some real flaws and limitations.
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