×
Message from Dave..... Moderator Approval

Don't panic if your post doesn't appear immediately.

× Rock Chalk Talk: Basketball

Anything pertaining to basketball: college, pro, HS, recruiting, TV coverage

AFH Rafters: criteria & Men's names @2022-04-13

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
4 years 5 months ago - 1 month 4 weeks ago #17093 by HawkErrant
KU Men’s Basketball honorees are listed at the end of this post.
For the Women with Jerseys in the Rafters, see this old (2004-05 season) LJW post linked here, which includes the Men (Blue & White banners) and Women (Crimson & White banners).
I'm looking for a more current listing, if anyone knows of one, please let me know!

First the details on the criteria for KU Men’s Basketball players to have their jersey honored (NB: I dislike the term “retired” in this instance as — for understandable practical reasons — neither the numbers nor the names are actually taken out of use. Other players in the future will be able to wear these numbers, and if a future player should happen to have the same last name... so I prefer the term “honored”. (I actually would like to call it being "Phogged", but I doubt it has much appeal.)

From kuinfo.ku.edu/what-are-qualifications-ja...sey-retired-and-hung ...

Q: What are the qualifications that a Jayhawk basketball player must meet to have their jersey retired and hung in the rafters of Allen Fieldhouse?

A: According to the Kansas Men's Basketball Media guide: The original criteria for a retired jersey included KU players named college basketball player of the year, most valuable player of the NCAA Tournament or being named a four-time All-American. The list was expanded in 1997 to include Ray Evans, who holds the distinction of being an All-American in both football and basketball. The criteria was expanded prior to the 2002-03 season to include consensus first-team All-Americans, two-time first-team All-America selections and Academic All-American of the Year. In 2006 legendary KU radio man Max Falkenstien was added to the rafters to recognize his 60 years of brodcasting KU athletics.

Having said all that, here is a Feb 2009 quote from Coach Self: "There is really not a criteria other than the greatest players that play here deserve to be considered for that."


KU started putting jerseys in the rafters just before the 1992-93 season when they chose Clyde Lovellette, Danny Manning, B.H. Born, Charlie T. Black, Paul Endacott, Wilt Chamberlain and Charlie B. Black to be honored. Charlie T. Black had died 4 years earlier in 1988, making him the first posthumous honoree. Chamberlain's jersey was not officially retired and raised to the rafters until they could work out getting him back to KU (a prospect he somewhat dreaded, as he felt he had let KU and its fans down in the 1957 NCAA title game) to retire it on January 17, 1998. (article link) (video link Chamberlain's jersey retirement ceremony)

=================================

To summarize the criteria as they exist today, the "guaranteed to hang in the rafters" criteria are earning at least one of:
1. NCAA D1 NPOY (see Note 1)
2. NCAA Tournament Final Four Most Outstanding Player
3. Consensus First Team All-American (See Note 2)
4. Two time First Team All-American (consensus not required) or
5. Academic All-American of the Year (Roy’s Rule so Vaughn's jersey could be in the rafters. IMO he should have added the criteria Bill added in 2020 instead of this one. It would have got JV there).
NEW per Head Coach Bill Self, 2020-02-14
6. Conference Player of the Year (NB: legitimizes the Vaughn selection as JV was 1996 Big 8 POY).

Remember that Head Coach Bill Self has repeatedly stated that the "guaranteed" critieria are guidelines, not hard and fast minimum requirements.
Also realize these same criteria are used for the Women's jerseys in the rafters.


NOTES
(1) NPOY awards considered are the Naismith HOF, AP, Wooden, NABC, The Sporting News, and Oscar Robertson trophies.
List of U.S. men's college basketball national player of the year awards
(2)Consensus teams
While an increasing number of media outlets select All-America teams, the NCAA recognizes consensus All-America teams back to 1905.[2] These teams have drawn from two to six major media sources over the years, and are intended to reflect the opinions of most college basketball experts. Today the four teams used to select consensus teams are: the Associated Press, The National Association of Basketball Coaches, the United States Basketball Writers Association and The Sporting News magazine. Since 1984, the NCAA has applied a standardized point system to those teams designated as "major" All-American teams to determine consensus teams. The point system consists of three points for first team, two points for second team and one point for third team. No honorable mention or fourth team or lower are used in the computation. The top five totals plus ties are first team and the next five plus ties are second team.
For more on how Consensus All American and Academic All Americans are determined, also see this Wikipedia article on NCAA Men's Basketball All-Americans
=================================

Note that as of this post’s most recent update there are currently SEVEN Kansas Men's Basketball players that meet the "guaranteed" criteria for retiring their jerseys that are not presently in the rafters:

Recent players
Thomas Robinson, 2012 consensus first team All-American
Frank Mason, everybody's 2017 NPOY and consensus first team All-American
Devonté Graham, 2018 consensus first team All-American
Ochai Agbaji, 2022 Big 12 POY and consensus first team All-American

Early KU players
Tommy Johnson, forward, 1909 consensus first team All-American
Ralph Sproull, forward, 1915 consensus first team All-American
Dutch Lonborg, guard 1919 consensus first team All-American
Source: NCAA.org: MEN’S BASKETBALL AWARD WINNERS, pages 2 & 9

I have yet to find a source listing uniform numbers for the last 3 fellows. Even if they had no uniform #s back then, jerseys with their names on them should still be up there.

And remember, Self is on record that the "guaranteed" criteria are only guidelines. For examples where the criteria were not followed to the letter, see Kirk Hinrich's #10, Walt Wesley's #13, Darnell Valentine's #14, Jo Jo White and Bud Stallworth's #15, Brandon Rush's #25, Bill Bridges' #32, Dave Robisch’s #40 and even Cole Aldrich's #45.
(Yes, Cole qualifies under Roy's Rule, and I believe he belongs up there, but I think that rule should be rescinded, as it is not about what happened on the court. Recognize Academic AAs elsewhere in The Phog. I’m proud of what they did in the classroom while undertaking the workload of being a college athlete, and support recognizing our Academic AAs. But in my opinion The Rafters should be reserved for the players that meet the court work criteria, with the Caretaker being able to make exceptions as warranted. As Coach Self has said, “the greatest players that play here deserve to be considered for that,” whether or not they were in our estimation adequately recognized by the national media for their impact on KANSAS Men’s or Women’s basketball.

Marcus Morris is the most recent player so honored.
KUSports.com - Matt Tait 2020-02-10: Kansas to retire Marcus Morris’ No. 22 jersey on Feb. 17

KANSAS JAYHAWKS MEN’S BASKETBALL HONORED JERSEYS (source and for more info: Wikipedia)
Note well: players honored who did not meet the established criteria are cited as Honored based on their Kansas Career (KC), and other critical information is included in (). As new "guaranteed" criteria are adopted, existing honorees who meet the new criteria have had that basis added to their Honors justification.
#   PLAYER		POS YEARS	  HONORED BASED ON
0   Drew Gooden		F   2000–02	  2002 NABC NPOY; Cons 1st team AA
4   Nick Collison	F   2000–03	  2003 NABC NPOY; Cons 1st team AA; B12 POY
    Sherron Collins^	G   2006–10	  2010 Consensus 1st team AA; Big 12 POY
5   Fred Pralle		G   1936–38	  1938 Consensus 1st team AA
    Howard Engleman	F   1939–41	  1941 Consensus 1st team AA
7   Tusten Ackerman†	C   1923–25	  1924, 1925 Helms Foundation AA (1)
8   Charlie T. Black*†	G   1922–24	  1924 Helms NPOY; 1924,1925 Helms AA (1)
10  Charles B. Black	F   1942–43,46–47 1943,1946 Cons 1stTmAA(AA 1942/43/46/47)
    Kirk Hinrich	G   2000–03	  KC(02,03 3rdTmAA-TSN/USBWA;03 3rdTmAA-AP)
11  Jacque Vaughn	G   1994–97	  1997 GTE Academic AAotYr; 1996 Big 8 POY
12  Paul Endacott*†	G   1921–23	  1923 Helms NPOY; 1922, 1923 Helms AA (1)
13  Wilt Chamberlain    C   1957–58	  1957 FFMOP; 1957, 1958 Cons 1st team AA 
    Walt Wesley		C   1964-66	  KC (1966 Consensus 2nd Tm AA)
14  Darnell Valentine	G   1978–81	  KC (1981 AP 2nd Tm AA)
15  Ray Evans		G   1942–43,46–47 1942,1943 Helms 1st TM AA(2)
    Jo Jo White		G   1966–69	  KC (1968, 69 Consensus 2nd Tm AA)
    Bud Stallworth	F   1970–72	  KC; Big8 POY 1972 (1972 Cons. 2ndTmAA)
    Mario Chalmers^	G   2006–08	  2008 FFMOP
16  Clyde Lovellette‡	C   1950–52(3)    1952 FFMOP,Helms POY; 1951,52 Cons 1stTmAA 
22  Marcus Morris	F   2008–11	  2011 Big 12 POY
23  B.H. Born‡		C   1952–54	  1953 FFMOP
    Wayne Simien	F   2002–05	  2005 Consensus 1st Tm AA, Big 12 POY
25  Danny Manning#	F   1985–88	  88 NPOY/FFMOP;87,88 Cons1stTmAA;3xB8POY(4)
    Brandon Rush^	F   2005–08	  KC(08 3rdTmNABC AA&B12T MVP;3x1stTmAllB12)
26  Gale Gordon		G   1925–27	  1926 Helms Foundation AA(1)
32  Bill Bridges	F   1959–61	  KC (3x all Big 8; 1961 AP Hon Mention AA)
34  Paul Pierce		F   1995–98	  1998 Cons 1st Tm AA; 1997,98 - B12T MVP 
36  Al Peterson		C   1925–27	  1926 Helms AA(1); 3x1st Tm All MVC
40  Dave Robisch	F   1969–71	  KC; 70,71 B8POY(71 2TmAPAA;3TmAA NABC,UPI)
45  Raef LaFrentz	F   1994–98	  1997,98 Cons 1st Tm AA & B12POY  
    Cole Aldrich^	C   2007–10	  2009 Academic AAotY (2010 Cons 2nd Tm AA)
60  Max Falkenstien     V  1945–2006      60 years as The Voice of the Jayhawks

NB: Conference Player of the Year was set as a guaranteed criteria in 2020. 
Older honorees whose jerseys were originally raised to the rafters due to 
their overall Kansas Career (KC), even though they did not meet the then
established criteria, but had been awarded Conference POY in their career,
are further validated for that accomplishment.
*Indicates member of 1922 National Championship team
†Indicates member of 1923 National Championship team
‡Indicates member of 1952 National Championship team
#Indicates member of 1988 National Championship team
^Indicates member of 2008 National Championship team
£Indicates member of 2022 National Championship team
(1) NCAA uses Helms Foundation AA teams as its official teams for 1908-1925 
(2) Evans is the only KANSAS athlete to have both his football and basketball 
jersey honored; usually considered the greatest all around athlete in KANSAS 
history. He also holds the distinction of being the only NCAA football player 
ever to lead the nation in passing on offense and interceptions on defense in 
the same season. Evans is still the Jayhawks single-season (10) and 
career (17) leader in interceptions.
(3) "Cumulus" Clyde Lovellette is still the only NCAA Division 1 Men's Player
to lead the Nation in scoring and his team to the NCAA Tournament title in 
the same season (1952).
(4) Danny Manning is the only KANSAS player ever to be named Conference Player 
of the Decade (1980s). 

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein
Last Edit: 1 month 4 weeks ago by HawkErrant. Reason: 2022-06-20 Added link to NCAA.org Men's Basketball Award Winners 2019
The following user(s) said Thank You: hairyhawk, Bayhawk, Freestate69

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Share this page:

 

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
4 years 5 months ago #17108 by HawkErrant
OP has been edited to add more on how the NCAA determines "Consensus First Team All Americans" and to correct the waiting list info on the four players I initially mentioned -- TRob, #BIFM, DG and Marcus.

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
4 years 5 months ago #17110 by HawkErrant
Note well regarding determining "Consensus" First Team AA status -- the NCAA uses the teams chosen by the Associated Press, The National Association of Basketball Coaches, the United States Basketball Writers Association and Sporting News magazine to determine "consensus".

All American teams are also named each year by USAToday, NBCSports and Bleacher Report (if more pop up, I'll add them to this list), but they are not currently used by the NCAA for determining "consensus", at least in part because some of these awards are only put together by 2 or 3 people, and not a broad group that would be more representative of national consensus.

Devonté has earned First Team AA status from USAToday and NBC Sports.

Bleacher Report named him 2nd team.

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
4 years 5 months ago #17127 by HawkErrant
Andy Katz on NCAA.com has named Devonté to his first team, with Jalen Brunson as his choice for NPOY. Again, this is one person's list, and even though published on the NCAA.com website, it is not used in determining who the NCAA D1 Consensus First Team All-Americans will be.

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
4 years 5 months ago #17136 by HawkErrant
Same for Rivals.com Eric Bossi's choosing DG. More here.

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
4 years 5 months ago #17432 by HawkErrant
From the US Basketball Writers Association.

www.sportswriters.net/USBWA/news/2018/allamerica180312.html

2 down, 2 left - AP and NABC.

Congratulations, Devonté!

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
4 years 4 months ago #17807 by HawkErrant
From the NABC.
www.wibwnewsnow.com/graham-named-nabc-all-america-first-team/

3 of 3 for the big 4, ensuring Consensus status.
All that remains is for the AP to name him 1st team.

Congratulations to Devonté!

Looking forward to seeing his #4 hanging in The Phog!

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
4 years 4 months ago #18142 by HawkErrant
As gorillahawk has reported, the AP has made it unanimous!

Congratulations to Devonté!

See you in The Rafters, D’tae!

www2.kusports.com/news/2018/mar/27/kus-d...ap-all-american-nod/

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein
The following user(s) said Thank You: Wheatstate Gal

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
2 years 6 months ago #24808 by HawkErrant

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bayhawk

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
2 years 6 months ago - 5 months 10 hours ago #24874 by HawkErrant
“There’s not an exact (criteria) on who goes up there,” Self said Friday. “But if you’re the MVP of a Final Four or you’re the Big 12 Player of the Year, you’re a lock. Or you’re a first-team All-American. So Marcus was a lock.”
Head Coach Bill Self, 2020-02-14
NEW GUARANTEED CRITERION
6. Conference Player of the Year


To summarize the criteria as they exist today, the "guaranteed to hang in the rafters" criteria are earning at least one of:
1. NCAA D1 NPOY
2. NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player
3. Consensus First Team All-American
4. Two time First Team All-American (consensus not required) or
5. Academic All-American of the Year (criteria set by Roy so Vaughn's jersey could be in the rafters2)
6. Conference Player of the Year (NB: legitimizes Vaughn selection as he was 1996 Big 8 POY).

NOTES
1. In addition to Thomas Robinson, Frank Mason and Devonté Graham, consensus First Team All-Americans who do not have jerseys hanging in the rafters are
1909– Tommy Johnson, forward
1915– Ralph Sproull, forward
1919– Dutch Lonborg, guard
I have yet to find a source listing uniform numbers for these guys. Even if they had no uniform #s back then, jerseys with their names on them should still be up there.
2. Roy should have gone the Conference POY route instead, as the guaranteed honor of having your jersey hanging in the rafters is -- at least to my way of thinking -- for what was done on the court, not in the classroom.
3. Finally, as Coach Self has repeatedly said, the criteria are "guidelines", not hard and fast minimum requirements.

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein
Last Edit: 5 months 10 hours ago by HawkErrant.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
2 years 6 months ago - 5 months 10 hours ago #24876 by HawkErrant
Made edits updating and expanding on the guaranteed criteria to both the previous post and the thread origin post.

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein
Last Edit: 5 months 10 hours ago by HawkErrant.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
2 years 6 months ago #24879 by HawkErrant
... so it -- and your responses, if any -- don't get lost "downstream".

A "Jayhawks in the Rafters" query (rant?)...

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
1 year 8 months ago #25950 by HawkErrant
The OP has been updated to include the actual list of KUMBB honorees (instead of just a link to a listing... said link still available for those wanting to read more) and to do a little editing to clean things up a bit.

Note that with February 17, 2020 “Phogging” of Marcus Morris there are currently SIX Kansas Men's Basketball players that meet the "guaranteed" criteria for retiring their jerseys that are not presently in the rafters:

Recent players
Thomas Robinson, 2012 consensus first team All-American
Frank Mason, everybody's 2017 POY and consensus first team All-American
Devonté Graham, 2018 consensus first team All-American

Early KU players
Tommy Johnson, forward, 1909 consensus first team All-American
Ralph Sproull, forward, 1915 consensus first team All-American
Dutch Lonborg, guard 1919 consensus first team All-American

I am sure we will see Thomas, Frank and Devonté in the rafters sooner rather than later once we are through the pandemic. Frankly, I’m surprised Thomas has not been honored yet.

Any one have a source listing uniform numbers for the last 3 fellows?
Even if they had no uniform #s back then, jerseys with their names on them should still be up there. And I see no sign of any move to so honor them.

I think KU should do so ASAP, and bring in any descendants for the ceremony to represent them and share in the moment.

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
5 months 11 hours ago #28733 by HawkErrant
See you in the rafters anon, young man!

RCB: Kudos, Ochai!

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
5 months 5 hours ago #28739 by Bayhawk
Today's secret word: “Phogged”. :cheer:


RCJHFL!!

The end is nothing; the road is all.
-- Jules Michelet
The following user(s) said Thank You: HawkErrant, hairyhawk

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
1 month 4 weeks ago #29403 by HawkErrant
FWIW --

Today I emailed Self about getting the jerseys of OG Jayhawks Tommy Johnson, Ralph Sproull and Dutch Lonborg into the AFH Rafters.
Here is the text of that email.

to: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
cc: joansteph@ku,edu

Hello, Coach!

First, our family's congratulations on another great championship season guiding our Jayhawks to the program's 6th National Championship! My wife's family have been living here in Lawrence since before Phog and Clyde and the boys rode the train back into town as NCAA champions back in 1952, and we all say WELL DONE in adding to the glory of the most historic and influential program in college basketball history!

And to quote Steely Dan, let's "get back, Jack and do it again!" B)

Second, I am writing you regarding Jerseys in the AFH rafters with a request that the following Old Guard Jayhawks be so honored, preferably during a game with any of their surviving descendants as guests for the ceremony. You know any such descendants would be thrilled to see their ancestor's name up there (even if the players didn't have a number on their jerseys back then).

According to NCAA records, the following early program Jayhawks are considered Consensus 1st Team All-Americans. As such, with the 2002 establishment of that criterion as one that *guarantees* a place in the rafters, these three Jayhawks should have been up there when that criterion was established. To this day they are not.

Tommy Johnson, forward, 1909
Ralph Sproull, forward, 1915
Dutch Lonborg, guard, 1919

Source: fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2019/Awards.pdf page 2

Yes, putting them up there isn't the big to do it would be for deserving players today (we are looking forward to seeing Thomas Robinson, Frank Mason, Devonté Graham, Ochai Agbaji and Big DAVE McCormack up there in the not too distant future), but it honors their memories and their contributions in helping establish Kansas Men's Basketball as one of the premier programs in the country. They are indeed worthy!

Thank you for everything, especially for your time and consideration!
And best of luck next year!

ROCK CHALK!

end email

If you would like to pitch in your two cents worth, please feel free to borrow from the above message if you like.

HE

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bayhawk, porthawk

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
1 month 4 weeks ago - 1 month 4 weeks ago #29405 by Illhawk
After he scored 25 in the semi I thought, if KU won on Monday, it would take another Danny in 1988 performance by Ochai or any other Jayhawk to displace Dave.
I understood this award was based on New Orleans, not all six games. At +900 he seemed and incredible bet , but I only placed $10 on him. After he had a solid game, with his defense contributing very significantly to the comeback he scored two baskets that essentially decided the game.
I'm out $90 and Dave is out a really nice award and an automatic banner at AFH,

My question really comes down to when is MOP decided and by whom?
Last Edit: 1 month 4 weeks ago by Illhawk.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
1 month 4 weeks ago #29407 by HawkErrant

Illhawk wrote: After he scored 25 in the semi I thought, if KU won on Monday, it would take another Danny in 1988 performance by Ochai or any other Jayhawk to displace Dave.
I understood this award was based on New Orleans, not all six games. At +900 he seemed and incredible bet , but I only placed $10 on him. After he had a solid game, with his defense contributing very significantly to the comeback he scored two baskets that essentially decided the game.
I'm out $90 and Dave is out a really nice award and an automatic banner at AFH,

My question really comes down to when is MOP decided and by whom?


NCAA FF MOP voting, as well as the All Tournament Team, is coordinated by the NCAA in cooperation with the US Basketball Writers Association.

I read somewhere that before 2022 the NCAA would arrange with 30 USBWA members who would be in attendance to vote. Because the award is presented shortly after the game is over -- and in the past the voting was done via paper ballot -- voters have traditionally been asked to submit their votes before the end of the game in order to have the votes counted in time for the presentation.

In 2022 for the first time the NCAA/USBWA opted to use a voting app to record the votes. Because it would allow for almost instantaneous vote counting once the voting was closed out, the decision was made to open the voting to all interested media members in attendance.

But the guidance given to the voters was to still get their votes in with no later than 2 minutes left in the game. And staff working the voting process went around to the media rows at the 12 minute break and reminded them to vote early.

Apparently only 25 media members voted, and David lost to Ochai by just 5 votes.

According to this article in the KC Star, "The MOP and the All-Tournament Team are awarded as a collaborative effort between the NCAA and United States Basketball Writers Association (USBWA).

Worlock
(David Worlock, the NCAA’s director of media coordination -- HE) said, at the moment, there were no plans to make further adjustments next season to the Final Four voting system.

“I don’t anticipate doing so, but we meet regularly with the USBWA,” Worlock said, “and would entertain any feedback or suggestions they might have.”


That ridiculous comment was made despite now having two such controversies in the last 5 NCAA Tournament Final Fours. The other was in 2017. Per the linked article, "Some North Carolina fans in 2017 started an online petition to get senior forward Kennedy Meeks recognized with a jersey retirement after he made two big plays — a block and a steal — in the final 20 seconds of UNC’s 71-65 national championship game win against Gonzaga. Meeks also led the Tar Heels with 25 points on 11-for-13 shooting in the Tar Heels’ previous victory over the Oregon Ducks in the Final Four. North Carolina guard Joel Berry was named MOP that season. And under UNC coach Roy Williams, Meeks never met the requirements for jersey retirement at Dean Smith Center.".

We love Ochai, but he did not have a MOP performance in the title game. And as you noted, David was superb over both games.

With modern tech, the "in by 2 minutes" needs to go. If I were the USBWA, given the tech I would change the process so votes could not be submitted until the game was over. They can be prepared, just not submitted. That would allow voters to change their minds if they wanted to once the game was over. If that had been the case in 2022, I have no doubt that BIG DAVE would have been the MOP.

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein
The following user(s) said Thank You: hairyhawk, porthawk

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
1 month 3 weeks ago #29412 by Illhawk
Thanks for the clarification. Voting no later than the end of minute 38 ignores the most important part of the game.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • HawkErrant
  • HawkErrant's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • b82, g84 Lift the chorus...
More
1 month 3 weeks ago #29413 by HawkErrant

Illhawk wrote: Thanks for the clarification. Voting no later than the end of minute 38 ignores the most important part of the game.


I agree. With today’s tech it is an anachronism that needs to end. As I’ve written, if I ruled the world, votes could not be submitted until the game was over. Prepped but not cast.
Tech works, use the advantages it provides.

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil but because of the people who don’t do anything about it” ~Albert Einstein

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Powered by Kunena Forum